Leaving a major to another?

Regarding culture, for me it is important. I’ve never been a “fly, go home and forget it,” kind of person. I’ve always loved being involved. In the past five years I’ve done union scheduling work, pilot hiring and recruiting and DEI work. It’s fulling and I felt like I was making a difference, albeit little bits at a time, but I still felt like I was giving back.

Lately, it’s been very hard for me to feel motivated and continue to have that attitude of wanting to make it a better place. I think differently than a lot of our pilots. I take a lot of pride in being a professional pilot. It’s all I’ve ever wanted to do.

I see for many here this is a part time retirement job that isn’t taken seriously. So many truly do not care about being a professional.

That attitude has caused a culture here where it’s uncool to look like and act like a professional. Nobody knows their airline and they genuinely don’t care to.
 
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I'm not going to dispute what other's views are. Sometimes I think I work for a different company. Or maybe I'm the odd one, most likely.
It's contract time and the company is also trying to get ahead of a slumping demand cycle. With everyone else in our industry hiring and seemingly passing record contracts, we aren't. The pivot to negativity here was swift.
Since upgrading I've genuinely enjoyed coming to work, still rather be out on the water at home but I enjoy my job. A large part of that now unfortunately is to minimize distractions while also listening to those that are much closer to the bottom than I am.
If we had a better culture would all of that be eliminated? I'm not really sure.
Freight has its own sub culture and professionalism starts to get blurred when the uniform maybe isn't as pressed but we move the freaking world every damn day and for a large part saved the global economy during the last plague. I don't need a hat to feel proud to be apart of that.
I'm sitting in the seat I've dreamed about since I was 6 years old. Is it puppy dogs and roses every day? No. Is it likely to change, absolutely, it's an old ass tri-motor in a time of efficiency. Am I worried that sometimes I'm on a sinking ship, sure, I think we all do at some point especially when we look at how green the neighbors yard appears. When we close the door tonight and head for Seattle will I have that twitch in my stomach, like holy • they are really going to let me take this airplane out? 100%. That's only happened in two positions in my career and I'm glad to be at one of them now.
 
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I'm not going to dispute what other's views are. Sometimes I think I work for a different company. Or maybe I'm the odd one, most likely.
It's contract time and the company is also trying to get ahead of a slumping demand cycle. With everyone else in our industry hiring and seemingly passing record contracts, we aren't. The pivot to negativity here was swift.
Since upgrading I've genuinely enjoyed coming to work, still rather be out on the water at home but I enjoy my job. A large part of that now unfortunately is to minimize distractions while also listening to those that are much closer to the bottom than I am.
If we had a better culture would all of that be eliminated? I'm not really sure.
Freight has its own sub culture and professionalism starts to get blurred when the uniform maybe isn't as pressed but we move the freaking world every damn day and for a large part saved the global economy during the last plague. I don't need a hat to feel proud to be apart of that.
I'm sitting in the seat I've dreamed about since I was 6 years old. Is it puppy dogs and roses every day? No. Is it likely to change, absolutely, it's an old ass tri-motor in a time of efficiency. Am I worried that sometimes I'm on a sinking ship, sure, I think we all do at some point especially when we look at how green the neighbors yard appears. When we close the door tonight and head for Seattle will I have that twitch in my stomach, like holy • they are really going to let me take this airplane out? 100%. That's only happened in two positions in my career and I'm glad to be at one of them now.

Extremely well said!

Granted, I've only been here a short time, but I'm extremely happy here! I think the culture here is a helluva lot better from whence I came.

I haven't had nights where I sit in silence the whole flight. I can generally find something to talk about with all the guys I fly with. Everyone on my fleet (save for 1 I won't be in a hurry to pick up a trip with) has been awesome. The way the Captains treat probies here is nothing short of outstanding and I can't wait to pay that forward when I move over.

It's very easy to get wrapped up in the negativity on social media and 12 nut jobs on APC. I don't allow myself to do that.

I smile every time I see that giant purple tail when I look up. I marvel at this amazing machine I, one of a very small percentage of pilots, get to fly. I'm thrilled I don't have to deal with the chaos in the back anymore and I pee or eat whenever I want. I genuinely feel good that I'm a very small part of helping families, hospitals, companies, etc get the stuff they need.

A contract will come. The world is not ending over here. When the company you work for is a verb, I feel it's a pretty good sign they're not going anywhere. CEOs will come and ago. And who knows, we may have a familiar last name in the big chair again.
 
Great post MikeC. Agree that freight is different and not for everybody. Has it's plusses and minuses. I remember a third of my class in 1990 left to go back to "the airlines" in the first year or two. It was during the beginning of the IPA and better contracts but there was a certain lack of prestige and image in being a freight dawg. No glamour in freight. Hats are dumb. It's definitely a different world walking thru a spartan concrete building full of package cars to get your paperwork and then trudge out to jet on the freight ramp with rickety stairs to get up into the plane. At some point in the career you'll be a creature of the night and that's not for everyone, either. Main thing is do what makes you happy.
 
It's certainly possible, of course.

But culture is a yoooooj part of the satisfaction with my job. I've had an amazing career and only a percentage of that is from actual flying work done.

I was discussing leaving my current job for a job at United and this was effectively the crux of the conversation. It's soooo difficult to know what the culture is really like until you actually arrive on the property and get a peek under the covers.

You don't know if management has become habituated to abusing pilots, the training department is a good old boys club that effectively only checks and doesn't train, that there is a culture of rushing in certain bases that has led to various levels of issues like taking off unpressurized or loss of operational control. What's worse is there is often a culture of shouting people down who are willing to talk about problems. So you can't even find out about these problems until you arrive on the property.
 
I'd be super duper cautious about jumping ship from a sure thing to someplace else based on promises. Aircraft, routes, expansion, even crew bases are like dust in the wind, dude. Contracts come and go.

Nothing is for sure, and nothing is forever. If you jump ship and things go to poop, you will be kicking yourself until the end of time.

The only way I'd jump was if I had less than a year or two, and I was moving to a MAJOR base for the other operator. ATL, DFW, ORD or something like that. Little bases, or ones that are "non-core" can evaporate in a matter of months. Living in base has a measurable impact on your QOL and income.

Promises of expansion? New aircraft? Hah. Not even worth the electrons in the email where they make such claims.

I have a whole other rant on marriage and families in this business, but I'll save that for another time.
 
I'd be super duper cautious about jumping ship from a sure thing to someplace else based on promises. Aircraft, routes, expansion, even crew bases are like dust in the wind, dude. Contracts come and go.

Nothing is for sure, and nothing is forever. If you jump ship and things go to poop, you will be kicking yourself until the end of time.

The only way I'd jump was if I had less than a year or two, and I was moving to a MAJOR base for the other operator. ATL, DFW, ORD or something like that. Little bases, or ones that are "non-core" can evaporate in a matter of months. Living in base has a measurable impact on your QOL and income.

Promises of expansion? New aircraft? Hah. Not even worth the electrons in the email where they make such claims.

I have a whole other rant on marriage and families in this business, but I'll save that for another time.

Laughs in PIT.

I agree with you though. The timeline for returns has become incredibly short. Guys not leaving a regional because they'll take a paycut for year one (but will recover it in year two). Guys looking at going somewhere that is a bad commute just because the upgrade right now is 5 years shorter than the place that has an awesome commute. If you are less than 35, you've got a really, really long career to sort stuff out. Today's winner could be tomorrow's loser.
 
Great post MikeC. Agree that freight is different and not for everybody. Has it's plusses and minuses. I remember a third of my class in 1990 left to go back to "the airlines" in the first year or two. It was during the beginning of the IPA and better contracts but there was a certain lack of prestige and image in being a freight dawg. No glamour in freight. Hats are dumb. It's definitely a different world walking thru a spartan concrete building full of package cars to get your paperwork and then trudge out to jet on the freight ramp with rickety stairs to get up into the plane. At some point in the career you'll be a creature of the night and that's not for everyone, either. Main thing is do what makes you happy.

So I have an anecdote about my father and UPS from back in those days. He was furloughed from Braniff 2 in the fall of '89 and interviewed at both UPS and Midway, UPS called first and while he was in class he got the call from Midway. Midway back then was successful and growing having just purchased the PHL operation from EAL, it was also ALPA vs whatever UPS was back then. He called his buddy that helped get the job at UPS and told him what was going on and his recommendation was run, don't walk from here to Midway, "I'd leave if I had that offer". So he left and the rest is forgotten history.

Point is you never know, and do what makes you happy.
 
So I have an anecdote about my father and UPS from back in those days. He was furloughed from Braniff 2 in the fall of '89 and interviewed at both UPS and Midway, UPS called first and while he was in class he got the call from Midway. Midway back then was successful and growing having just purchased the PHL operation from EAL, it was also ALPA vs whatever UPS was back then. He called his buddy that helped get the job at UPS and told him what was going on and his recommendation was run, don't walk from here to Midway, "I'd leave if I had that offer". So he left and the rest is forgotten history.

Point is you never know, and do what makes you happy.

Out of curiosity how did your father's career end up after Midway went under?
 
Out of curiosity how did your father's career end up after Midway went under?
Fits and starts then really good, Midway, a car salesman, Markair, Morris Air, SWA and retired at 61 on his own terms. My mom retired first, I think he was just jealous. He has two mergers, three bankruptcies, and got fired from his first commuter job in the 70s for interviewing at another airline (which he wasn't hired at) in his past, and for some stupid reason I followed him into this business.
 
So I have an anecdote about my father and UPS from back in those days. He was furloughed from Braniff 2 in the fall of '89 and interviewed at both UPS and Midway, UPS called first and while he was in class he got the call from Midway. Midway back then was successful and growing having just purchased the PHL operation from EAL, it was also ALPA vs whatever UPS was back then. He called his buddy that helped get the job at UPS and told him what was going on and his recommendation was run, don't walk from here to Midway, "I'd leave if I had that offer". So he left and the rest is forgotten history.

Point is you never know, and do what makes you happy.

In 1988 we had folks leaving UPS left and right. No union, no real work rules, pay was terrible and schedules/trips were changed at a moments notice. Crew scheduling was a couple girls in a broom closet sized office holding pencils with big erasers. Folks were basically on reserve. No cellphones or beepers, no Internet or websites just sit by the phone. At one point my first year as a probie, I got called out for a 3 day trip (B727 engineer). I got home 3 weeks later. The airline had only started flying 2 months earlier and the whole place was an organizational mess at every level….to be polite. Ok, it was a huge • show! Capt’s we’re only making $65K/yr and management told us point blank to never expect to make over $100k/yr since that was management territory and well, we weren’t!

Things were bad.…really bad. This was pre-IPA union. Management lead by a very effective intimidation and threat policy. I still remember my release to the line check as a new hire. Backside of the clock trip to Tulsa from Louisville. I was dead tired having been up for over 24 hrs due to being up all day prior and not being able to flip the switch to sleep before my trip. The check airman was an old school freightdawg and after landing in Tulsa he wanted to walk across the street from the hotel to a 7/11 and get some microwavable burritos and a six pack of cheap beer. I was told I would be joining him. He said he was teaching me to be a real freight dawg! Being only a 26 year old knucklehead and a new hire/ probationary pilot on my line check I felt compelled to humor the guy. Getting very little sleep again trying to switch my body clock I was toast by the time I got back home. I think I slept for 3 days straight after that. I remember telling myself I couldn’t do this for another 30+ years. I still vividly remember that trip and not in a good way. Turns out my “real freightdawg“ check airman was a double SCAB (Came from United). He and I never spoke again the rest of my career.

The older and wiser Capt‘s were telling me to get some jet time under my belt and leave as soon as possible. Those days were different when looking for a job. Commuters were flying small turboprops and required the same time and experience that large jet operators will take now and there were fewer options all around. There was no Internet to mass blast resumes out to hiring websites. Everything was mailed in and “hiring windows” were word of mouth or knowing someone. I eventually secured interviews at TWA, Braniff 2 and American. I actually went to the American interview and fortunately got a TBNT’s letter. Again, thank God for unanswered prayers!

After a long talk with my father, who convinced me to stay and stick it out at UPS. After all, he said, UPS took a chance on you….you owe them some loyalty in return. He was a big work ethic guy. I’m so glad I listen to him! Things got much better when we voted in our own in-house union…the IPA. Thank God for the 4 horseman (our union founding fathers led by Capt Bob Miller) who with unshakable commitment fought tooth and nail to secure better working conditions.

We went from everyone’s last choice of places to work to a top tier employment opportunity. It took many years before the pax carrier guys would even talk to us to having those same guys asking how to get an interview with UPS. Are things perfect, no. But they’re so much better than they were when I was new hire. It’s 180 degrees better. We’re one of the very few that still have a pension after retirement and that’s huge anytime but especially during these economic hard times.

I think back to that first flight with the company and how I almost left for what I thought were greener pastures. 2 out of 3 of those airlines don’t even exist anymore. I never made many great decisions in my life but the decision to stick out what seemed like a terrible situation in the beginning turned out to be one of my better ones. YMMV…..
 
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Fits and starts then really good, Midway, a car salesman, Markair, Morris Air, SWA and retired at 61 on his own terms. My mom retired first, I think he was just jealous. He has two mergers, three bankruptcies, and got fired from his first commuter job in the 70s for interviewing at another airline (which he wasn't hired at) in his past, and for some stupid reason I followed him into this business.
Do you know what his class date was at UPS? My class had a bunch of Braniff 2 guys, which was pretty typical back then. I was Feb 19, 1990. I was 29 and luckily probably didn't have the quals for a couple years to go anywhere else decent so I just ended up staying...haha. The IPA was just getting started when I was in training. So, early 1990. Teamsters before that.
 
In 1988 we had folks leaving UPS left and right.

Didn't know you were an 88'er. I thought they were all from the contractors. You musta had a pretty good "in" to get on at 25 in 88....haha. I thought the mid-90's schedules on 727 were the best I saw in my career. I guess I was senior as an F/E, but I could have done EFD-DFW-EFD my whole career. QOL went to pot when they parked the 72's and I moved over to the 75. Being senior is always the key, though. Still, towards the end, I thought the skeds were really bad. Part of why I got out at 60.
 
Do you know what his class date was at UPS? My class had a bunch of Braniff 2 guys, which was pretty typical back then. I was Feb 19, 1990. I was 29 and luckily probably didn't have the quals for a couple years to go anywhere else decent so I just ended up staying...haha. The IPA was just getting started when I was in training. So, early 1990. Teamsters before that.
It would have been in the fall of 1989, he was in class to be an engineer on something but I don't remember what.
 
Didn't know you were an 88'er. I thought they were all from the contractors. You musta had a pretty good "in" to get on at 25 in 88....haha. I thought the mid-90's schedules on 727 were the best I saw in my career. I guess I was senior as an F/E, but I could have done EFD-DFW-EFD my whole career. QOL went to pot when they parked the 72's and I moved over to the 75. Being senior is always the key, though. Still, towards the end, I thought the skeds were really bad. Part of why I got out at 60.

Yep…March 88’ and was one of the first classes not from a contract carrier. We were referred to as “boat people”. BTW…I had no inside scoop. Nobody in my family flew or knew anything about aviation. Luck was in my favor!

It’s true though….I’m an old fart!:p Actually I had just turned 26 when hired. Engineer and f/o‘ed on the 727 for a short time and went to the 757 in 90’. Towards the end I was doing afternoon turns on the MD and getting displaced a lot for “release to the line” checks and management proficiency flying.
 
Yeah. Afternoon turns and living in base would have been a good deal. I commuted my whole career with no regrets. Did hot RFD my last four years and it was good but got burned out on it a bit and there was just nothing else. Towards the end the MD might have had the best schedules but I was too lazy to switch planes. It was easier to just quit...
 
It would have been in the fall of 1989, he was in class to be an engineer on something but I don't remember what.

Just about everything back then had an engineer (727, 747, DC8) except the Atari Ferrari (757). Sorry your dad missed out on what eventually became a good career choice but completely understand why he left back then.
 
Yeah. Afternoon turns and living in base would have been a good deal. I commuted my whole career with no regrets. Did hot RFD my last four years and it was good but got burned out on it a bit and there was just nothing else. Towards the end the MD might have had the best schedules but I was too lazy to switch planes. It was easier to just quit...

Yep, afternoon turns out of SDF were cake compared to most schedules. No complaints there. However, the draw to be on the golf course became stronger than any day in a brown jet.;)
 
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