Leaving a major to another?

[podrick]

It’s not everything but do you know what number you’d hypothetically retire as at both?

I’m in a similar situation as you, might even be at the same place. While my seniority progression would be faster at UA in the first 10 years, my retirement seniority would actually be worse due to how many younger pilots have been hired the last year. Obviously we’re talking pretty big hypotheticals here but something to consider.

Based on retirements alone, my seniority progression at all 3 legacy’s would be close to even after 10 years. It’s just that one air line is a pretty linear progression, while the other two would be a faster progression at first.

 

[pizzawings]

It’s not everything but do you know what number you’d hypothetically retire as at both?

I’m in a similar situation as you, might even be at the same place. While my seniority progression would be faster at UA in the first 10 years, my retirement seniority would actually be worse due to how many younger pilots have been hired the last year. Obviously we’re talking pretty big hypotheticals here but something to consider.

Based on retirements alone, my seniority progression at all 3 legacy’s would be close to even after 10 years. It’s just that one air line is a pretty linear progression, while the other two would be a faster progression at first.

I do not know what my number would be at ua other than I assume similar seniority progression but faster at first like you said. Do you have access to the ua list? I guess a lot of variables at play that may or may not be worth it. Mixed feelings. Current shop could always expand wide body count and international flying in the future.

 

[tcco94]

You aren’t losing much at airline A if you leave, with only a year on property.

Hell a year in this hiring environment could be close to 2500 numbers below you…

That’s a lot to lose to chase airplane orders when you could probably hold a widebody at airline A anyways.

My 2c to poster would be to do a bit more research beyond the airplane orders. You okay with global reserve? Airport standby? Seniority progression or time to hold a line at airline A vs B? Bases and commuting? Earning potential and lost seniority progression making switch? I feel like there’s much more to consider here than the shiny recruiting tool of “airplane orders” with whoever this anonymous airline A you work for is.

 

[USN88]

One year… psssh, do it.

I’m 6 yrs FDX, considering going *back* to UAL. Live in SoCal. 34 years old.
Never thought I’d say that.

 

[Box hauler]

One year… psssh, do it.

I’m 6 yrs FDX, considering going *back* to UAL. Live in SoCal. 34 years old.
Never thought I’d say that.

You were at FDX at 28 and UAL before that?? Who are you lol

 

[///AMG]

One year… psssh, do it.

I’m 6 yrs FDX, considering going *back* to UAL. Live in SoCal. 34 years old.
Never thought I’d say that.

So might I ask, why are you thinking about going back?

 

[GypsyPilot]

One year… psssh, do it.

I’m 6 yrs FDX, considering going *back* to UAL. Live in SoCal. 34 years old.
Never thought I’d say that.

Yeah, I’ve somewhat contemplated it myself. It’s crazy that I’m a 5 year widebody CA considering leaving FDX, and it makes me sick that I came here instead of UAL. If I get downgraded to FO (entirely possible depending on the rumors), it starts to make sense.

But I also assume UAL probably wouldn’t hire me again after I turned down my CJO in 2018. Also, I think the music is potentially going to stop/slow down at other airlines in the next few months, and at least I have some seniority here (about 60%).

 

[USN88]

So might I ask, why are you thinking about going back?

There are a lot of reasons, tbh. I left UAL to come here in 2017 because on paper it made more sense. At the time I was commuting to UAL, living in a DL base. I really enjoyed UAL, but as a first time commuter, and looking at a career of commuting, it made me consider other options. So DL and FDX (for their DH trips) made most sense. FDX called and I went-- it was an extremely difficult decision, and I knew from the beginning here that it wasn't "my place." It's been a decent 5.5 years, but I've never truly enjoyed the flying. The culture here doesn't fit me as much as UAL's did, either. It's very auxiliary and somewhat lonely. I wanted to leave in 18'-19' but I was more concerned about what friends in the industry would think-- so I didn't pursue it. Then COVID hit, and we all know that story. Now here we are today, FDX isn't holding back about their plans to change our network structure. They plan to utilize more 3rd party lift at the expense of our own flying, their constant stalling during negotiations, activist investor groups that want the company to shed as much cost as possible, slowing hiring and possible base closures, plus the union's priorities in this negotiation cycle I feel are somewhat out of touch with the current trends in the industry. Yes, there are up's and down's, but the bigger issue is the general dislike for the flying. I can't see myself doing this for 30 more years. I've done all the flying here, short domestic, day, night, 12 day international 777. I would take me another 20 years to get the seniority to hold the best flying we have, which is daytime transcends with dead heads. Between now then, what does one do? Fly nights? 12 day around the world trips? I look at that and cringe.

I'd probably retire 1500 at UAL if I were to start today. I wouldn't be nearly as senior there as I would be here... but I grew up near LAX. I could be based there, sit reserve or fly 3-4 day trips during the day time, I could be around people again, and to me that's all that matters. I think my satisfaction in the job would increase greatly. I don't need to retire as a 78/77 CA anymore. I should still have a few years to do it, if I wanted, but it's not that important to me anymore.

I don't have a family, I don't have any debt and I have a good amount saved so I can make the jump with little stress. I know it probably sounds like I'm just complaining and am a huge eyore but I'm just being honest. And I think in this industry you have to be.

I have several friends here around my seniority that often contemplate it. Will they actually do it? Who knows. Will I do it? TBD.

 

[Box hauler]

There are a lot of reasons, tbh. I left UAL to come here in 2017 because on paper it made more sense. At the time I was commuting to UAL, living in a DL base. I really enjoyed UAL, but as a first time commuter, and looking at a career of commuting, it made me consider other options. So DL and FDX (for their DH trips) made most sense. FDX called and I went-- it was an extremely difficult decision, and I knew from the beginning here that it wasn't "my place." It's been a decent 5.5 years, but I've never truly enjoyed the flying. The culture here doesn't fit me as much as UAL's did, either. It's very auxiliary and somewhat lonely. I wanted to leave in 18'-19' but I was more concerned about what friends in the industry would think-- so I didn't pursue it. Then COVID hit, and we all know that story. Now here we are today, FDX isn't holding back about their plans to change our network structure. They plan to utilize more 3rd party lift at the expense of our own flying, their constant stalling during negotiations, activist investor groups that want the company to shed as much cost as possible, slowing hiring and possible base closures, plus the union's priorities in this negotiation cycle I feel are somewhat out of touch with the current trends in the industry. Yes, there are up's and down's, but the bigger issue is the general dislike for the flying. I can't see myself doing this for 30 more years. I've done all the flying here, short domestic, day, night, 12 day international 777. I would take me another 20 years to get the seniority to hold the best flying we have, which is daytime transcends with dead heads. Between now then, what does one do? Fly nights? 12 day around the world trips? I look at that and cringe.

I'd probably retire 1500 at UAL if I were to start today. I wouldn't be nearly as senior there as I would be here... but I grew up near LAX. I could be based there, sit reserve or fly 3-4 day trips during the day time, I could be around people again, and to me that's all that matters. I think my satisfaction in the job would increase greatly. I don't need to retire as a 78/77 CA anymore. I should still have a few years to do it, if I wanted, but it's not that important to me anymore.

I don't have a family, I don't have any debt and I have a good amount saved so I can make the jump with little stress. I know it probably sounds like I'm just complaining and am a huge eyore but I'm just being honest. And I think in this industry you have to be.

I have several friends here around my seniority that often contemplate it. Will they actually do it? Who knows. Will I do it? TBD.

Good on you for being honest with yourself. This industry has vastly different lifestyles as you know and big money will be a byproduct of either option. People sometimes look at me odd when knowing I could have went to UAL, AA etc but stayed at Yellow because I enjoy it and the money is plenty good. QOL weighs for after taxes…

 

[Flyinthrew]

Was trying to get hired at ua last summer, but another airline called first and so I went. Out of the choices, the main reason I wanted ua was due to the retirements, widebodys available/future orders, and they hired less than some of the competitors did the past 5 years.Now I finally heard from ua, and trying to decide if it would still be worth it. I looked at the retiring numbers and future seniority, and unless I'm counting wrong I would estimate the seniority progression would be very similar depending on when I would start.

The difference being the larger widebody order ua has and the talks of growing the seniority list to 20k pilots. I would looking at a 30+ year career.My cons would be leaving a already great company to be at the bottom again and year of probation. There's also no guarantee the widebodys order would stay or what the future holds in terms of fleets. Really just looking to hear another perspective or if any ua pilot here can give their opinion. Thanks!

Study hard for the interview. Look into company history and all the hippy dippy culture stuff your two prospects put out. People love to be the consummate rugged individual and poopoo on company culture stuff, but it really, really matters. The post above about probably leaving FedEx- company culture driven. Slumtodd’s visceral disgust for SWA- company culture driven. The rabid customer loyalty that is going to power your company through the next downturn without having to dump 20% of the list is also driven by the current culture. It is always said that seniority is everything, but square pegs in round holes are miserable. Our rigid seniority based system traps people in places they do not belong and they live their lives in this miserable state instead of moving to somewhere that they would be in harmony and achieve some fulfilment.

What’s going to get you more time off at home or at the very least an easyish commute if you have to?

I can’t believe we got all the way to post 8 before this post. All else being pretty equal…this.

 

[derg]

I met a guy who went DAL-FDX-DAL.

I dunno, man. Not making a comparative judgement at all, but every airline is going to have peaks and valleys. Just are you at the carrier you're going to be able to both endure the peaks and valleys and get a taste of the flying you truly want to do.

I'm sitting in a hotel room in Seoul about to go explore a bit and it's stimulating all the synapses I haven't felt spark since my days on the 7ER and 330 and it's exciting as hell again. But my career has been 'peaks and valleys' but there's enough variety of flying that it's worth enduring it and I've been treated exceptionally well through my career here. But that's something I'd probably never get at Frontier because I'm all about big jets far places.

All I can say is make career moves for you and your family. Period. End of story. Not what the internet says, or going where's fashionable, and if your career matches your career ambitions, the internet is going to go through machinations of "you're an idiot for staying there" followed by "man, you're lucky for being there!" followed by "you're an idiot for staying there" followed by…

You catch my drift.

Do what YOU want. Everything else works out.

 

[JDean3204]

I met a guy who went DAL-FDX-DAL.

I dunno, man. Not making a comparative judgement at all, but every airline is going to have peaks and valleys. Just are you at the carrier you're going to be able to both endure the peaks and valleys and get a taste of the flying you truly want to do.

I'm sitting in a hotel room in Seoul about to go explore a bit and it's stimulating all the synapses I haven't felt spark since my days on the 7ER and 330 and it's exciting as hell again. But my career has been 'peaks and valleys' but there's enough variety of flying that it's worth enduring it and I've been treated exceptionally well through my career here. But that's something I'd probably never get at Frontier because I'm all about big jets far places.

All I can say is make career moves for you and your family. Period. End of story. Not what the internet says, or going where's fashionable, and if your career matches your career ambitions, the internet is going to go through machinations of "you're an idiot for staying there" followed by "man, you're lucky for being there!" followed by "you're an idiot for staying there" followed by…

You catch my drift.

Do what YOU want. Everything else works out.

I know it’s still early on, but that is probably the post of the year. Very wise words!!

 

[///AMG]

I know it probably sounds like I'm just complaining and am a huge eyore but I'm just being honest.

No, not at all. Thanks for the honest answer, and good luck with your decision/future career. It's interesting to hear.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Study hard for the interview. Look into company history and all the hippy dippy culture stuff your two prospects put out. People love to be the consummate rugged individual and poopoo on company culture stuff, but it really, really matters. The post above about probably leaving FedEx- company culture driven. Slumtodd’s visceral disgust for SWA- company culture driven. The rabid customer loyalty that is going to power your company through the next downturn without having to dump 20% of the list is also driven by the current culture. It is always said that seniority is everything, but square pegs in round holes are miserable. Our rigid seniority based system traps people in places they do not belong and they live their lives in this miserable state instead of moving to somewhere that they would be in harmony and achieve some fulfilment.



I can’t believe we got all the way to post 8 before this post. All else being pretty equal…this.

I don’t see why culture is such a big deal for airline pilots. You can just show up, fly, and go home, if that’s your thing. You don’t have to get involved with anything.

 

[Baronman]

I don’t see why culture is such a big deal for airline pilots. You can just show up, fly, and go home, if that’s your thing. You don’t have to get involved with anything.

Some people seem to be able to do this (raises hand). Go to work....fly....go home. Others really invest much more of their life and identity into the corporation. Where I am, seems like us locals go to work, clock-in for our day trip or two day and get out. Paycheck comes on the 8th and 21st. Get bombarded with company emails in the meantime, look at 5% of them...delete 99% of it.

 

[IPad (10)]

I don’t see why culture is such a big deal for airline pilots. You can just show up, fly, and go home, if that’s your thing.

In my experience, the type of person that is attracted to the career is not a show up, fly and go home personality. That is why you are posting on this forum 10+ years into your career. It is why I tried so hard to build a fun culture at Dumont...and it is one reason Dumont had such a low turnover rate until I left.

The job is a place that is intertwined into your life half of the month. You are the culture that the airline breeds. If you do not like it, the toxicity will flow through you veins daily, even at home. I can see what USN88 is talking about at Purple. The loneliness of our domestic system is hard to understand until you do it. The cockpit is a lonely place between 11pm and 6am. Everyone has their own sleep cycle during the day. It is very easy to fly five days with someone and not have one meaningful conversation. When you consider that person can be the only human interaction you have all week...it is depressing. I believe you did that at AmeriFlight back in the day...but there is a huge difference between doing it in your 20s and doing it for the rest of your life.

Alex

 

[///AMG]

^ I hadn't thought of it that way. Most of my trips that involve a redeye also involve other normal human hour legs/days, where I can actually engage with the person I'm flying with. But those night legs, yeah, there isn't much being talked about. I can't imagine those being the only flights I do for long periods of time. I don't mind them too much as long as they are just here and there. Totally different experience though.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

In my experience, the type of person that is attracted to the career is not a show up, fly and go home personality. That is why you are posting on this forum 10+ years into your career. It is why I tried so hard to build a fun culture at Dumont...and it is one reason Dumont had such a low turnover rate until I left.

The job is a place that is intertwined into your life half of the month. You are the culture that the airline breeds. If you do not like it, the toxicity will flow through you veins daily, even at home. I can see what USN88 is talking about at Purple. The loneliness of our domestic system is hard to understand until you do it. The cockpit is a lonely place between 11pm and 6am. Everyone has their own sleep cycle during the day. It is very easy to fly five days with someone and not have one meaningful conversation. When you consider that person can be the only human interaction you have all week...it is depressing. I believe you did that at AmeriFlight back in the day...but there is a huge difference between doing it in your 20s and doing it for the rest of your life.

Alex

That’s not culture, though, that’s the nature of that business. When there’s 10k+ pilots on property, there’s going to be all types sitting next to you. Most of the things I care about in this job are regulated by the FAA and the contract.
Culture is much more important at a smaller flight department with less oversight and no union protection.

 

[JustinS]

Some people seem to be able to do this (raises hand). Go to work....fly....go home. Others really invest much more of their life and identity into the corporation. Where I am, seems like us locals go to work, clock-in for our day trip or two day and get out. Paycheck comes on the 8th and 21st. Get bombarded with company emails in the meantime, look at 5% of them...delete 99% of it.

Culture matters a lot more when you're stuck with a guy for a 5-10 day trip... Having worked at 3 airlines I've seen 3 different cultures, and I know which one I liked best. It really does make the difference on how quickly a trip will go by, and how enjoyable work is. When you're spending half your life at work you don't want to be miserable the whole time because you worked at a place that wasn't for you... This career takes too much time out of your life for you to not enjoy it.

 

[derg]

I don’t see why culture is such a big deal for airline pilots. You can just show up, fly, and go home, if that’s your thing. You don’t have to get involved with anything.

It's certainly possible, of course.

But culture is a yoooooj part of the satisfaction with my job. I've had an amazing career and only a percentage of that is from actual flying work done.