Leave for Frontier or stay at Atlas

swakid8

swakid8

Well-Known Member
Hey everyone, I am faced with a tough choice. I am currently with Atlas air on year 2 and received a CJO with Frontier airlines recently. I’ve been debating to make the move or stay where I am at. Every other day I am switching sides.

Pros with staying with Atlas
- Schedule is great for me and the family believe or not (fixed year long schedule)
- commute is easy and gotten easier with my new base now
- Money is good right now for the short term (can’t make a decision about this)

Cons
- Looks like things are going to stagnate some in terms of growth here and upgrades
- Retirement isn’t industry standard
- Question mark about future flying 767 and 737 fleet with Amazon. Hate to see them go away then that will really stagnate things for me.

Pros Frontier Airlines
- A lot of growth planned which means potential career upward movement more so than where I am at.
- More schedule flexibility
- Better retirement

Cons
- the commute looks like it will be pain in the butt with not having a lot of Frontier metal out of my home airport
- first year pay is terrible (short term pain for long term gain)

I’ve been trying to land a legacy carrier but it seems like I am hearing crickets from United and AA and unfortunately didn’t make it past the Delta assessment. Lay it on me.
 
swakid8 said:
Hey everyone, I am faced with a tough choice. I am currently with Atlas air on year 2 and received a CJO with Frontier airlines recently. I’ve been debating to make the move or stay where I am at. Every other day I am switching sides.

Pros with staying with Atlas
- Schedule is great for me and the family believe or not (fixed year long schedule)
- commute is easy and gotten easier with my new base now
- Money is good right now for the short term (can’t make a decision about this)

Cons
- Looks like things are going to stagnate some in terms of growth here and upgrades
- Retirement isn’t industry standard
- Question mark about future flying 767 and 737 fleet with Amazon. Hate to see them go away then that will really stagnate things for me.

Pros Frontier Airlines
- A lot of growth planned which means potential career upward movement more so than where I am at.
- More schedule flexibility
- Better retirement

Cons
- the commute looks like it will be pain in the butt with not having a lot of Frontier metal out of my home airport
- first year pay is terrible (short term pain for long term gain)

I’ve been trying to land a legacy carrier but it seems like I am hearing crickets from United and AA and unfortunately didn’t make it past the Delta assessment. Lay it on me.
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I am at the Zoo and you can ask me questions.

We have a lot of growth planned and they are struggling to find and keep people. We have a lot of negotiation power. We could end up with a lot of good improvements.

Let me know if you have questions.
 
ASpilot2be said:
I am at the Zoo and you can ask me questions.

We have a lot of growth planned and they are struggling to find and keep people. We have a lot of negotiation power. We could end up with a lot of good improvements.

Let me know if you have questions.
Click to expand...

Wilco
 
another F9'er here....there's a lot of moving parts right now with growth, attrition with FO's under 2 years, and opening 3 bases in the past 6 months (PHX comes online Nov 1st) and not to mention the Merger!

the good part: if everything comes to fruition...in 7 years (a lifetime in the airline industry) you're looking at ~500+ aircraft and ~7000 pilots. The ONLY way to do to that is to attract more pilots and the ONLY way to do that we need not a decent contract but very good contract.

So because of that we have a TON of leverage with the current environment.

the bad part....that's all fairy poop until it actually happens....and when it does...it might not be enough, so we will see.

also, don't play the short game...this is a long term question, do you end up in a better position in 20 years?

FWIW, all my buddies at Atlas say they are waiting for Brown or Purple or they are staying there...
 
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GypsyPilot said:
How much TPIC do you have? If it were me, I’d stay at Atlas and go to FDX/UPS or a legacy. Sorry to hear about DAL, but I wouldn’t let that deter you.
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I’m at Frontier and I was thinking the same. If the OP is relatively happy at Atlas and would still be trying for a legacy once at F9 then the best choice is to stay put.
 
GypsyPilot said:
How much TPIC do you have? If it were me, I’d stay at Atlas and go to FDX/UPS or a legacy. Sorry to hear about DAL, but I wouldn’t let that deter you.
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250 hours. Got caught up with bad timing with Covid, downgrades, etc, FedEx and UPS, Southwest are out the picture until I get back into the left seat. Not letting the Delta TBNT deter me one bit.
 
swakid8 said:
Hey everyone, I am faced with a tough choice. I am currently with Atlas air on year 2 and received a CJO with Frontier airlines recently. I’ve been debating to make the move or stay where I am at. Every other day I am switching sides.

Pros with staying with Atlas
- Schedule is great for me and the family believe or not (fixed year long schedule)
- commute is easy and gotten easier with my new base now
- Money is good right now for the short term (can’t make a decision about this)

Cons
- Looks like things are going to stagnate some in terms of growth here and upgrades
- Retirement isn’t industry standard
- Question mark about future flying 767 and 737 fleet with Amazon. Hate to see them go away then that will really stagnate things for me.

Pros Frontier Airlines
- A lot of growth planned which means potential career upward movement more so than where I am at.
- More schedule flexibility
- Better retirement

Cons
- the commute looks like it will be pain in the butt with not having a lot of Frontier metal out of my home airport
- first year pay is terrible (short term pain for long term gain)

I’ve been trying to land a legacy carrier but it seems like I am hearing crickets from United and AA and unfortunately didn’t make it past the Delta assessment. Lay it on me.
Click to expand...

Two years at Atlas isn’t a particularly long time but it’s not nothing, I’d ask yourself if you believe that going to the bottom of what will be a fairly large combined seniority list is worth it right now when looking at world events. I’m not sure I believe we are heading for all out nuclear war, and if we are, your choice doesn’t matter anyhow, but I do think things are going to get bad enough that it will cause the industry to suffer and stop the music so to speak.
Good luck with your choice
 
swakid8 said:
Hey everyone, I am faced with a tough choice. I am currently with Atlas air on year 2 and received a CJO with Frontier airlines recently. I’ve been debating to make the move or stay where I am at. Every other day I am switching sides.

Pros with staying with Atlas
- Schedule is great for me and the family believe or not (fixed year long schedule)
- commute is easy and gotten easier with my new base now
- Money is good right now for the short term (can’t make a decision about this)

Cons
- Looks like things are going to stagnate some in terms of growth here and upgrades
- Retirement isn’t industry standard
- Question mark about future flying 767 and 737 fleet with Amazon. Hate to see them go away then that will really stagnate things for me.

Pros Frontier Airlines
- A lot of growth planned which means potential career upward movement more so than where I am at.
- More schedule flexibility
- Better retirement

Cons
- the commute looks like it will be pain in the butt with not having a lot of Frontier metal out of my home airport
- first year pay is terrible (short term pain for long term gain)

I’ve been trying to land a legacy carrier but it seems like I am hearing crickets from United and AA and unfortunately didn’t make it past the Delta assessment. Lay it on me.
Click to expand...

Curious. I've had my eye on Atlas for a while.

What makes you think stagnation/lack of growth will be a thing for them?
 
Stay at Atlas until you get a job at the airline you want to end your career with. No need to make another mid jump if you’re not completely gung ho. It’s only a matter of time until on of your career goal airline calls.
 
I'm coming down on the "quality of life" side... if it was me, I'd stay at Atlas until you can get on with a major. Not sure I'd go over to Frontier/Spirit at this time. You should at least wait until the combined wreckage comes to a complete stop... :)
 
swakid8 said:
250 hours. Got caught up with bad timing with Covid, downgrades, etc, FedEx and UPS, Southwest are out the picture until I get back into the left seat. Not letting the Delta TBNT deter me one bit.
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Just for reference: I interviewed with 2 legacies (DAL & SWA) and got the TBNT, 6 months later was hired at Brown. You never know until it happens. I didn't have any internals, either. I came from an ACMI background.

I personally would stay at Atlas.
 
swakid8 said:
I’ve been trying to land a legacy carrier but it seems like I am hearing crickets from United and AA and unfortunately didn’t make it past the Delta assessment. Lay it on me.
Click to expand...

If you’re going to keep trying for a legacy, I wouldn’t bother stopping at “the fifth largest airline in the US*”

*probably

if you want to go to Sprontierit because that’s where you want to end up, I’d suggest the juice is worth the squeeze. I wouldn’t bother using it as a stepping stone, then you’re giving yourself two pay cuts, two probationary periods, more time spent on reserve, etc..
 
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There was a time when several Atlas guys were in each class at Brown. Not sure about now but it's about as good of a way to Brown as you can get, I think. Many of you may not know the history of how the airline started at UPS. Prior to 88, UPS used subcontractors like Amazon does now. You could whipsaw the different operators against each to keep them in check. UPS is sort of a "control freak" company, though, and the rumor was the FAA wanted them to have more "operational control" over the airline. So, UPS started their own airline by buying out this little company called International Parcel Express that had three DC8's. The number one guy on the UPS seniority list today is 57 years old and was on the list there. UPS hired pilots from the contract carriers (Evergreen, Ryan, Orion, IPX) to form their pilot group in 88. Nothing like being first on the list at a new airline. Amazon will someday equal UPS and Fedex, if they don't already. Will the start their own airline? The whipsaw thing is great but it's not how UPS and Fedex do it and you don't have the same amount of control over the operation. I think if they did start their own airline, being at Atlas could put a guy at the beginning of the list at Air Amazon. It would suck at first, like UPS did, until the pilot group unionized and brought themselves up to industry standard...like the IPA did.


EIR said:
Just for reference: I interviewed with 2 legacies (DAL & SWA) and got the TBNT, 6 months later was hired at Brown. You never know until it happens. I didn't have any internals, either. I came from an ACMI background.

I personally would stay at Atlas.
Click to expand...
 
DE727UPS said:
There was a time when several Atlas guys were in each class at Brown. Not sure about now but it's about as good of a way to Brown as you can get, I think. Many of you may not know the history of how the airline started at UPS. Prior to 88, UPS used subcontractors like Amazon does now. You could whipsaw the different operators against each to keep them in check. UPS is sort of a "control freak" company, though, and the rumor was the FAA wanted them to have more "operational control" over the airline. So, UPS started their own airline by buying out this little company called International Parcel Express that had three DC8's. The number one guy on the UPS seniority list today is 57 years old and was on the list there. UPS hired pilots from the contract carriers (Evergreen, Ryan, Orion, IPX) to form their pilot group in 88. Nothing like being first on the list at a new airline. Amazon will someday equal UPS and Fedex, if they don't already. Will the start their own airline? The whipsaw thing is great but it's not how UPS and Fedex do it and you don't have the same amount of control over the operation. I think if they did start their own airline, being at Atlas could put a guy at the beginning of the list at Air Amazon. It would suck at first, like UPS did, until the pilot group unionized and brought themselves up to industry standard...like the IPA did.
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I still think Atlas is a feeder for Brown. We had 3 Omni, 3-5 Atlas, 5ish Qatar/Emrites, 1 corporate and the rest military.

I definitely could see Amazon buying ATSG. As of last year, they were the majority share holder.
 
swakid8 said:
Hey everyone, I am faced with a tough choice. I am currently with Atlas air on year 2 and received a CJO with Frontier airlines recently. I’ve been debating to make the move or stay where I am at. Every other day I am switching sides.

Pros with staying with Atlas
- Schedule is great for me and the family believe or not (fixed year long schedule)
- commute is easy and gotten easier with my new base now
- Money is good right now for the short term (can’t make a decision about this)

Cons
- Looks like things are going to stagnate some in terms of growth here and upgrades
- Retirement isn’t industry standard
- Question mark about future flying 767 and 737 fleet with Amazon. Hate to see them go away then that will really stagnate things for me.

Pros Frontier Airlines
- A lot of growth planned which means potential career upward movement more so than where I am at.
- More schedule flexibility
- Better retirement

Cons
- the commute looks like it will be pain in the butt with not having a lot of Frontier metal out of my home airport
- first year pay is terrible (short term pain for long term gain)

I’ve been trying to land a legacy carrier but it seems like I am hearing crickets from United and AA and unfortunately didn’t make it past the Delta assessment. Lay it on me.
Click to expand...

Honestly I think if I was leaving Atlas, I'd only leave for the big 3 legacy pax carriers or the big 2 legacy cargo carriers. That's it. And it's no offense to any of the other carriers (I'm at one of those). It's just the "is it worth making this jump?" equation, IMO, doesn't add up unless it's for those 5 carriers.
 
killbilly said:
Curious. I've had my eye on Atlas for a while.

What makes you think stagnation/lack of growth will be a thing for them?
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Well, the contract has a few shortcomings including comparable retirement benefits to other carriers. Also, they aren’t retaining pilots to grow. At best it is a break even pilot group right now with as many leaving as are being trained. So, when you buy 4 747s and 4 777s how are they going to staff them without an increase in pilots?

Carlson’s approach to filling the pilot gap from his broadcast late last year was to begin to recruit high school students. Sound like a good plan?
 
moxiepilot said:
Well, the contract has a few shortcomings including comparable retirement benefits to other carriers. Also, they aren’t retaining pilots to grow. At best it is a break even pilot group right now with as many leaving as are being trained. So, when you buy 4 747s and 4 777s how are they going to staff them without an increase in pilots?

Carlson’s approach to filling the pilot gap from his broadcast late last year was to begin to recruit high school students. Sound like a good plan?
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Those things all make sense - I just don't have any context to put them in.

One thing I have learned from this site over the years is to take any messaging from the executive leadership at any airline with a giant bag o' salt.

Cargo appeals to me for a variety of reasons, but it's not a set-in-stone thing. Just doing my homework.
 
killbilly said:
Those things all make sense - I just don't have any context to put them in.

One thing I have learned from this site over the years is to take any messaging from the executive leadership at any airline with a giant bag o' salt.

Cargo appeals to me for a variety of reasons, but it's not a set-in-stone thing. Just doing my homework.
Click to expand...

Be careful as a CFI about future career prognostications...
 
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