Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach

Someone still fly’s a saberliner?

NFO's during my era of flight school still flew in the T-39N. At some point around that time, there was a mishap where IIRC a battery or something in the tail overheated, caused fire, which resulted in the failure of the stabs/tail empennage and it nosed over and they all rode it in. I believe it was during a low level, so I guess at least it happened quickly. That mishap brought about the retirement of that jet pretty shortly thereafter.
 
One more thing from lining up the radio calls with the ADS-B. To my ear, her voice changes significantly between the 10,000 fpm call and the 20,000 fpm call. On the first she's energetic and alert but composed. On the second she sounds much more alarmed, while still having the presence of mind to keep working the radio (using the call sign, for instance). The ADS-B data changes in those same seconds. Times are UTC and assume the LiveATC archive starts at exactly 17:30:00. Path angle uses ground speed and Mach is rough, with wind unknown and temperature taken from the crew's −47°C report:

- 17:48:30, "Mayday", 10,000 fpm call: −14,016 fpm, path 16° down, no turn (track 099°), about 0.84 Mach.

- 17:48:36, "[Declaring] emergency": −19,904 fpm, path 22° down, first movement in the track, about 0.88 Mach.

- 17:48:41, 20,000 fpm call: about −20,700 fpm, path 22–23° down, turning right at 1.2°/s, about 0.90 Mach.

- 17:48:50: −20,864 fpm, path 22° down, turning right at 2.5°/s, about 0.90 Mach.

- 17:49:03, "twenty two thousand feet ... banking sixty": over −31,000 fpm, path about 35–40° down, turning right at 2–4°/s, about 0.91 Mach.

The jet appears to go over its Mach limit at about the time of the first descent and Mayday calls. Mmo is 0.81 Mach from 26,750 to 37,000 ft (Learjet 60 AFM FM-123, Change 37, page 1-9, a 2009 revision; the FAA data sheet charts the same limit, TCDS A10CE, Rev. 67, page 23: Dynamic Regulatory System ). Assuming no wind, it passes 0.81 at about 17:48:27, about when she first calls the descent. Assuming 20 kt of headwind or tailwind moves that to about 17:48:21 or 17:48:32, still after the descent began at about 17:48:16.

The right turn first shows at about 17:48:36, about when she starts to sound more alarmed, within about a second of alignment. Before that the jet is presumably in a wings-level nose-over, with load well under 1 g (our rough estimates run about 0.1–0.4 g). After it, the bank is building at about 1.1–1.4 g, and the speed is near 0.90 Mach. Those load figures are estimates from fitted ADS-B, not measurements.

The descent rate climbs fast until about 17:48:36, then holds near 20,000 fpm until about 17:48:50 before steepening again. Her 20,000 call falls on that plateau and that number matches the ADS-B data.

What this doesn't show is what caused the change in her voice from call to call. She could be reacting to the overspeed, the rate, the roll, or recovery inputs that weren't working. It's tempting, but obviously still premature, to tie the start of the bank to the left elevator coming off, since the NTSB says most of it was found 1.3 to 3.8 miles from the site. A separation at that moment would need about 2 miles of drift or carry, which is possible, but nothing shows it. Also, of course, a right spiral isn't necessarily due to a left elevator separation. High-Mach wing drop, uneven ice or damage, or a small roll that a pull then tightens could all do it.

Same caveats as before: a rough outline, not a forensic analysis. Still using well-managed AI assistance; numbers and calculations are checkable against public data.

Pete
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Ok AI bot
 
I keep seeing coffin corner plausible cause pilots online, but I doubt it. If they were doing FL410 just before the FL panhandle just fine, with enough margin that allowed them to be there, 350 would definitely be fine, and a climb to 370 should be fine.

Probably much more to do with icing, and LOC-I with an improper recovery that leads to inflight breakup.

They were fine in smooth air at fl410.

They were climbing out of 350 in turbulence that was displacing them 700ft from assigned altitude, in ISA+ conditions.

A 700 foot displacement (by ATC recordings) will come with a pretty significant AOA change and probably IAS change.


I’d not rule anything out yet.
 
They were fine in smooth air at fl410.

They were climbing out of 350 in turbulence that was displacing them 700ft from assigned altitude, in ISA+ conditions.

A 700 foot displacement (by ATC recordings) will come with a pretty significant AOA change and probably IAS change.


I’d not rule anything out yet.

We have to see. Someone else above in the thread wrote with how calmly she was talking about doing 600, no 700, ft it sounded like she was looking at the VSI rate they were climbing, versus an uncontrollable 600-700 ft displacement.

Time will tell, and agreed can’t rule anything out. Such a tragedy :(
 
Some posts are mentioning that In addition to the nine precious souls, there was also the family dog, a chihuahua named "Bonnie" :(
 
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I had chat do my receipts and expense reporting for me for the first time. I just scanned all the receipts into Google Drive, told it to compile them in statement order and match them.

Given that I had 3 weeks of Italian and German receipts that were in euro with a statement in USD, and they were all in languages I don’t read… it was amazing.

I am an AI convert now. No more getting yelled at for delayed expense reporting!!
That’s using it as the tool it was designed for. Now ask it to write a haiku or song regarding those expenses!
 
So... no paint on the leading edges and really clean hot section?
Yep. When the factory paint wears off, they just start polishing the leading edges.

And gonna keep avoiding thunderstorms

Thankfully, my long-time royal client has never put any pressure on me. Such a strange connection between an Athiest American and a Saudi Imam. Unlike many Saudis that have an ‘Inshalla” attitude, this old guy understands safety and has never pressured me to fly in marginal conditions.

In fact, his family doesn’t leave the hotel until I call. If everything looks good, I call the hotel and catering at the same time.

I don’t know where folks get their confidence when it comes to weaving their way through weather.
 
Yep. When the factory paint wears off, they just start polishing the leading edges.

And gonna keep avoiding thunderstorms

Thankfully, my long-time royal client has never put any pressure on me. Such a strange connection between an Athiest American and a Saudi Imam. Unlike many Saudis that have an ‘Inshalla” attitude, this old guy understands safety and has never pressured me to fly in marginal conditions.

In fact, his family doesn’t leave the hotel until I call. If everything looks good, I call the hotel and catering at the same time.

I don’t know where folks get their confidence when it comes to weaving their way through weather.
Your stories about flying with Saudis is the example I used when explaining my understanding of the general meaning of “Inshallah” when I dropped it in conversation the other day
 
Your stories about flying with Saudis is the example I used when explaining my understanding of the general meaning of “Inshallah” when I dropped it in conversation the other day

It is funny. For the average Saudi, Inshalla means “WTF let’s send it”.

For the most of the super religious types, they believe that good judgment precedes the “Inshalla”.

It’s a problem, because the “Inshalla attitude” is contagious. It often appeals to the tired or lazy.
 
Yep. When the factory paint wears off, they just start polishing the leading edges.

And gonna keep avoiding thunderstorms

Thankfully, my long-time royal client has never put any pressure on me. Such a strange connection between an Athiest American and a Saudi Imam. Unlike many Saudis that have an ‘Inshalla” attitude, this old guy understands safety and has never pressured me to fly in marginal conditions.

In fact, his family doesn’t leave the hotel until I call. If everything looks good, I call the hotel and catering at the same time.

I don’t know where folks get their confidence when it comes to weaving their way through weather.

I have to admit, I've picked my way through some of the gnarliest weather known to human kind.
Sometimes for VERY good reasons, and a few time for some stupid/lazy reasons.
Either way, you have to be VERY pro active to maintain your margins and really REALLY know your radar.

At this point in my career, it's just not worth it.
(frankly, at ANY point in your career, it's not worth it)
((I'm just smarter now))

It is funny. For the average Saudi, Inshalla means “WTF let’s send it”.

For the most of the super religious types, they believe that good judgment precedes the “Inshalla”.

It’s a problem, because the “Inshalla attitude” is contagious. It often appeals to the tired or lazy.

Was about to comment about the different flavors of "Inshalla", but you pretty much nailed it.
 
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