Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach

[trafficinsight]

Yeah, we go by rules-of-thumb
Don't go into or under the anvil.
Be aggressive about avoiding buildups, even if they look small
Ask ATC once (maybe twice) then TELL them what you're doing

My technique was always "ask nicely once, request formally once, then state intentions."

I have gotten to step 3 more than once.

 

[MikeD]

Was going into ATL one day and ATC was vectoring everyone into the same shrinking hole.

Shades of thunderstorms and TCUs all stacked up from south of the Mexico border and over and north of ELP/EWM, with the entirety of the R5103/5107s active.

 

[nocturnalaviator]

There was some sluth who managed to find some ATC audio of an issue this young pilot had a few months ago where she got herself into a severe turbulence situation but kept referring to it as "moderate chop" and wasn't able to maintain altitude. The ATC barked back at her explaining that it's not "chop" if she cant maintain an altitude and that she needed to descend ASAP. My question is...where do these social media sluths find this crap online and dont they have a job or some other life responsibility to get to?

“Like and subscribe to keep my family alive!” I wonder the same thing and I really do believe Ready Player One is a sequel to Idiocracy.

 

[Roger Roger]

There was some sluth who managed to find some ATC audio of an issue this young pilot had a few months ago where she got herself into a severe turbulence situation but kept referring to it as "moderate chop" and wasn't able to maintain altitude. The ATC barked back at her explaining that it's not "chop" if she cant maintain an altitude and that she needed to descend ASAP. My question is...where do these social media sluths find this crap online and dont they have a job or some other life responsibility to get to?

Ok, but if that was also in a jet, and she’s on the radio, what in the actual • is the captain doing and when did we abandon the concept of the captain having final authority for the safety of the flight (not to mention being the pilot flying) so we can crucify the FO working the radios?

 

[CFI A&P]

I said nothing of that sort.


I made a commentary on trends I’ve seen in 121, when other guys were writing about stuff in 91 and 135.

None of this even sniffed at asking the question if this trend is happening in 91/135. You took it upon yourself to gripe about new junior pilots and inject your opinion about post-pandemic hires.

"121… I’ve noticed a disturbing trend with the post Covid hires (versus pre COVID era). The tendency to literally slingshot themselves next to a major weather cell. All 3 airlines I’ve worked at the FOM says to clear storms by 20 miles at that altitude. Apparently a suggestion now. They’ll go right up to the red as they hug around it. I can’t even count how many times I’ve had to say, hey, come more left to avoid something they are gonna skirt the edges of. Pre 2020 it seemed people were better at dodging storms.


ASAP reports prior to Covid were mostly cookie cutter errors, fairly dull, mostly meh. Since Covid, them ASAPs be wild."

 

[Roger Roger]

None of this even sniffed at asking the question if this trend is happening in 91/135. You took it upon yourself to gripe about new junior pilots and inject your opinion about post-pandemic hires.

"121… I’ve noticed a disturbing trend with the post Covid hires (versus pre COVID era). The tendency to literally slingshot themselves next to a major weather cell. All 3 airlines I’ve worked at the FOM says to clear storms by 20 miles at that altitude. Apparently a suggestion now. They’ll go right up to the red as they hug around it. I can’t even count how many times I’ve had to say, hey, come more left to avoid something they are gonna skirt the edges of. Pre 2020 it seemed people were better at dodging storms.


ASAP reports prior to Covid were mostly cookie cutter errors, fairly dull, mostly meh. Since Covid, them ASAPs be wild."

If anything I’d say his fellow ex VX captains are more at fault for this than anyone… I’ll be looking at the radar display trying to estimate 20 miles and the captain will be like leroyyyy jenkinnnnns (as long as we’re on the upwind side)

I believe it was also a former VX captain who starred (as captain and PF) in a particularly exciting event we looked at in 2023 CQ.

So, yknow, as long as we’re stereotyping.

 

[Roger Roger]

We have to get back to being comfortable making the uncomfortable decisions we get paid to make. Threading the needle goes as far as the next fatal accident. Carry extra fuel, land and wait, hold, delay, no- go. Those attitudes, they be hazardous! And learn the F’n weather, enough with the ForeFlight nonsense, read and interpret, don’t just skim it. I’m losing count on how many ATP check rides have a hard time answering basic PPL type meteorological questions.

Let’s be real, the tradition of 135/91 jet FOs being a warm body to sling the gear (especially if they have some other attribute like being the CPs buddy or the owners kid or a pretty woman) is a long and storied one. Where was the captain/PF in all this?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

None of this even sniffed at asking the question if this trend is happening in 91/135. You took it upon yourself to gripe about new junior pilots and inject your opinion about post-pandemic hires.

"121… I’ve noticed a disturbing trend with the post Covid hires (versus pre COVID era). The tendency to literally slingshot themselves next to a major weather cell. All 3 airlines I’ve worked at the FOM says to clear storms by 20 miles at that altitude. Apparently a suggestion now. They’ll go right up to the red as they hug around it. I can’t even count how many times I’ve had to say, hey, come more left to avoid something they are gonna skirt the edges of. Pre 2020 it seemed people were better at dodging storms.


ASAP reports prior to Covid were mostly cookie cutter errors, fairly dull, mostly meh. Since Covid, them ASAPs be wild."

Are you a 121 pilot? Do you have any valuable input or just like to complain?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It’s cruel to put a kid into these types of high stakes situations so soon. Rumor (unverified) has it her boyfriend of around 28yo was at the controls. Heard in the background saying the Lord’s Prayer.

It takes years, and more than flying in mostly vmc to learn this stuff. Most parents are hesitant to have their kids take the car, let alone a $4 mil aircraft full of pax. Yes qualified on paper, is just paper. We all know the check ride is just the beginning. It’s a shame how unserious some people in this industry are about the consequences. Looking at you decision makers behind the desks. RIP to the pax and crew.

We have to get back to being comfortable making the uncomfortable decisions we get paid to make. Threading the needle goes as far as the next fatal accident. Carry extra fuel, land and wait, hold, delay, no- go. Those attitudes, they be hazardous! And learn the F’n weather, enough with the ForeFlight nonsense, read and interpret, don’t just skim it. I’m losing count on how many ATP check rides have a hard time answering basic PPL type meteorological questions.

And FFS please. You’re either a professional pilot or a TikTok star. Pick one, but keep the cockpit sterile. It’s not an open sky.

I saw the BF rumor online too. But now the NY Post (seems to be worse than DM, if that was possible) is reporting she text her BF 10 minutes before the crash about turbulence. So presumably she’s inflight and he’s on the ground. Not flying with BF.

Who knows. This seems to give a vibe of the Air Cargo Carriers (I think?) at CRW where the FO was basically texting a running commentary of her Capt being sucky to her BF before crashing.

Hoping it’s not the case. She’s already getting trashed online article comments section. Everything from female pilot, to DEI, to can’t drive, all that BS.

People suck, we are a mistake as shark pointed out. Days like this are evidence.

 

[rockman2343@aol.com]

High altitude weather and aerodynamics are badly under-taught in the industry. You don’t really learn it in primary training, or if you do you brain dump it because it’s not immediately relevant, and once you go to a jet an existing knowledge of both is assumed to be a given.

This! When EET came out about 7 years ago, I went to OKC for the company so I could learn what they wanted us to teach the company. I'll admit, I had a moment or two where I thought "damn, I've been flying this long and I wasn't aware of this?" Being able to accelerate at altitude comes to mind. Prior to that I was probably more of the mindset that if I can get there and level off, it should accelerate and that is not always the case.

 

[tomokc]

It seems very odd to me that there's been little/no reporting about the operator. When I founded a flight school/rental/charter outfit, we always had steps in place to follow if there was an accident, injury or fatality. (Fortunately we never had to do this.) No information would be released until we we were contacted by a member of the press, then it was the usual boilerplate confirming it was one of our aircraft, we're cooperating with authorities, and we'll provide additional information when we can, and we're unable to answer questions at this time.

 

[MikeD]

What I'm seeing is that a large portion of people (both pilots in the influencer era and non-pilots) don't seem to grasp how much isn't "seen" in the aviation world. Such as a photo of someone at FL450 -> the general reaction is wow and cool. However, not much discussion about Coffin's Corner, or Mach Tuck, and other high altitude subjects.

High altitude weather and aerodynamics are badly under-taught in the industry. You don’t really learn it in primary training, or if you do you brain dump it because it’s not immediately relevant, and once you go to a jet an existing knowledge of both is assumed to be a given.

Hardly taught in civilian land, but heavily taught in military jet training world. Thus, that knowledge is a given for us, but unfortunately not done for everyone. Hence the need for things like EET and other things that should be basic knowledge, but aren’t. And why events like Pinnacle 3701 occur.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Someone misidentified some other female pilot who was 21. That other female pilot had written on social media that shew flew Lenny Kravitz from Austin to Bahamas before. So the online speculation becomes it wasthis (incorrect) female FO and that LK was dead.

LK’s publicist issued a statement that he’s alive and the FO wrote online that it wasn’t her.



The downfalls of social media. But why is ANY Corpie writing about celeb names? Shouldn’t that be private?

 

[Fixtur]

Not familiar with the specifics of 135 crew pairings…is that acceptable? Obviously not a common scenario and Im sure romantic couples have flown together before countless times (If John and Martha can do it…), but if that request comes across a 135 manager’s desk does that not raise some concerns? Not to say I even believe thats the case here, we’ll wait and see but that raised some questions in my mind.

As long as both pilots are qualified for the roles they are performing, there's no reason they couldn't be paired.

There may be some HR concerns, but not operationally.

Also, most part 135s don't have the flexibility to be picky about pairings you fly with one of the other 3 people at the company with the type, or not at all.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Hardly taught in civilian land, but heavily taught in military jet training world. Thus, that knowledge is a given for us, but unfortunately not done for everyone. Hence the need for things like EET and other things that should be basic knowledge, but aren’t. And why events like Pinnacle 3701 occur.

Yes, true, but ex-military instructor taught elements of the AAMP were cited by the NTSB for AA 587.


When I started at 9E 4 yrs after 3701, we had high altitude aerodynamics as a part of ground school. It was at least something, but sad that it came as a result of 3701. Shouldn’t take dead pilots before changes are enacted. Written in blood, literally.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Let’s be real, the tradition of 135/91 jet FOs being a warm body to sling the gear (especially if they have some other attribute like being the CPs buddy or the owners kid or a pretty woman) is a long and storied one. Where was the captain/PF in all this?

Yep, been there done that.

I went from a fairly low time CFI (around 600 hours dual given, ~ 1000 TT) to right seat 135 King Air 90.

Training was legal but absolute bare minimum. Definitely hair on fire for me the first few trips (but also totally awesome and exciting).

I would’ve been useless if SHTF, because I was inexperienced and our training was garbage. I look back on those times after 15 years of 121 experience and just cringe.

I would NEVER allow someone I care about to fly on some rando 91/135 flight.

 

[MikeD]

It takes years, and more than flying in mostly vmc to learn this stuff. Most parents are hesitant to have their kids take the car, let alone a $4 mil aircraft full of pax. Yes qualified on paper, is just paper. We all know the check ride is just the beginning. It’s a shame how unserious some people in this industry are about the consequences. Looking at you decision makers behind the desks. RIP to the pax and crew.

Agree. It’s nothing to do with the specific FO here, it’s anyone who is in an operation like this with only about 2.5 or so years of total flying experience, and likely no real stepping stone(s) before arriving at that position. They truly don’t know how much they don’t know.

Like has been already said, it’s a story as old as time. Not the first, won’t be the last.

However, as i don’t fly corporate, what are the insurance company requirements for PIC and SIC experience in corporate flight operations? I imagine there are some? Especially if flying celebs or VIP type people?

 

[MikeD]

Yes, true, but ex-military instructor taught elements of the AAMP were cited by the NTSB for AA 587.


When I started at 9E 4 yrs after 3701, we had high altitude aerodynamics as a part of ground school. It was at least something, but sad that it came as a result of 3701. Shouldn’t take dead pilots before changes are enacted. Written in blood, literally.

Point is, nothing is taught about these kinds of things in civilian land, when it really needs to be, especially for these high altitude operations, and not just because two pilots turned themselves into a smoking hole in the ground in an RJ. At least EET has come around, which very basic, but better than nothing.

 

[Roger Roger]

Point is, nothing is taught about these kinds of things in civilian land, when it really needs to be, especially for these high altitude operations, and not just because two pilots turned themselves
into a smoking hole in the ground in an RJ. At least EET has come around, which very basic, but better than nothing.

Don’t go too far the other way as to say NOTHING is taught. Merely, not enough. Another factor I would say is that technology has reduced how much folks need to know, for example, the aerodynamics on newer aircraft are much better especially at the edges of the envelope (high altitude, low and high speed), FMCs can give you an answer in seconds as to what altitude you can maintain right at that moment, FADEC engines won’t allow you to overheat and core lock as in the PCL crash, etc. of course there are still plenty of older jets out there running around.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Point is, nothing is taught about these kinds of things in civilian land, when it really needs to be, especially for these high altitude operations, and not just because two pilots turned themselves into a smoking hole in the ground in an RJ. At least EET has come around, which very basic, but better than nothing.

Agreed +1