Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach

HeyEng said:
For those of you who haven't heard the audio but are still thinking of listening, do your best to NOT DO SO. I made the unfortunate mistake of listening last night before all the warnings about how it went down. As a result, sleep was hard to come by last night and was fitful at best. Now, it appears there is a face to go with the voice which makes it all so much worse.
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Agree. It was horrible. Easily the most disturbing pilot / ATC exchange I have ever heard. I will not be listening to it again. I thought it was AI.
 
Box hauler said:
I feel so sorry for her parents who probably saw footage of this only to abruptly find out it was their kid. It’s cruel how unfair and unforgiving life can be
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It’s cruel to put a kid into these types of high stakes situations so soon. Rumor (unverified) has it her boyfriend of around 28yo was at the controls. Heard in the background saying the Lord’s Prayer.

It takes years, and more than flying in mostly vmc to learn this stuff. Most parents are hesitant to have their kids take the car, let alone a $4 mil aircraft full of pax. Yes qualified on paper, is just paper. We all know the check ride is just the beginning. It’s a shame how unserious some people in this industry are about the consequences. Looking at you decision makers behind the desks. RIP to the pax and crew.
 
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Murdoughnut said:
I may have to avoid the Internet the next couple of days - it's not going to be kind to her, even though this 40-something year old white dude would sound the same.
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I agree with you, but I do believe it’s odd it’s over the air and not on the CVR. If there are clues to be found, it seems like one is an over reliance on ATC.
 
Maurus said:
Yeah, never liked that. I know ATC thinks they are helping but this can pressure people to make the wrong call.

Was going into ATL one day and ATC was vectoring everyone into the same shrinking hole. Meanwhile 20 miles south had a massive clearing. I told them I wanted to go to the big blue area to the south and everyone started to follow suit.

Hell, I forced DTW to turn the airport around once. Apparently having 3 planes in a row having to do windshear recoveries due to airspeed loss wasn't enough. ATC said the windshear was "smooth". Winds aloft we're a direct tailwind over 40 knots starting around 800 ft.

People are weird in this industry. Almost like they don't want to be perceived as the "weak" ones.

To be fair to ATC. Their tech is only so good and they have a lot in their plate that weather complicates. Easy to get fixated a solution even though a better one may has started to exist.
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To be fair I’ve also told pilots I can take them ONLY if they’re willing to fly through Gap A and they say absolutely then 2 minutes later say they need to deviate a direction I can’t let them deviate because there’s other planes there already.
 
We have to get back to being comfortable making the uncomfortable decisions we get paid to make. Threading the needle goes as far as the next fatal accident. Carry extra fuel, land and wait, hold, delay, no- go. Those attitudes, they be hazardous! And learn the F’n weather, enough with the ForeFlight nonsense, read and interpret, don’t just skim it. I’m losing count on how many ATP check rides have a hard time answering basic PPL type meteorological questions.

And FFS please. You’re either a professional pilot or a TikTok star. Pick one, but keep the cockpit sterile. It’s not an open sky.
 
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nocturnalaviator said:
We have to get back to being comfortable making the uncomfortable decisions we get paid to make. Threading the needle goes as far as the next fatal accident. Carry extra fuel, land and wait, hold, delay, no- go. Those attitudes, they be hazardous! And learn the F’n weather, enough with the ForeFlight nonsense, read and interpret, don’t just see it. I’m losing count on how many ATP check rides have a hard time answering basic PPL type meteorological questions.
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What I'm seeing is that a large portion of people (both pilots in the influencer era and non-pilots) don't seem to grasp how much isn't "seen" in the aviation world. Such as a photo of someone at FL450 -> the general reaction is wow and cool. However, not much discussion about Coffin's Corner, or Mach Tuck, and other high altitude subjects.
 
nocturnalaviator said:
It’s cruel to put a kid into these types of high stakes situations so soon. Rumor (unverified) has it her boyfriend of around 28yo was at the controls. Heard in the background saying the Lord’s Prayer.

It takes years, and more than flying in mostly vmc to learn this stuff. Most parents are hesitant to have their kids take the car, let alone a $4 mil aircraft full of pax. Yes qualified on paper, is just paper. We all know the check ride is just the beginning. It’s a shame how unserious some people in this industry are about the consequences. Looking at you decision makers behind the desks. RIP to the pax and crew.
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Not familiar with the specifics of 135 crew pairings…is that acceptable? Obviously not a common scenario and Im sure romantic couples have flown together before countless times (If John and Martha can do it…), but if that request comes across a 135 manager’s desk does that not raise some concerns? Not to say I even believe thats the case here, we’ll wait and see but that raised some questions in my mind.
 
SeanD said:
Isnt there Learjet that is single-pilot certified or am I thinking of a Citation?
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Maybe the
CFI A&P said:
What I'm seeing is that a large portion of people (both pilots in the influencer era and non-pilots) don't seem to grasp how much isn't "seen" in the aviation world. Such as a photo of someone at FL450 -> the general reaction is wow and cool. However, not much discussion about Coffin's Corner, or Mach Tuck, and other high altitude subjects.
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hopefully things like this get those conversations rolling
 
invadertim said:
I kinda wonder if the underreporting is in part a phraseology issue; we go from “moderate” to “severe”, which has always seemed to me like we’re skipping a step. There’s no “heavy” turbulence, it’s always felt to me there should be one there. Severe sounds like an emergency, which by cracky it is I suppose, and that gets into the reluctance to declare emergencies when perhaps we should.

It also seems to me there’s a tendency to not use the “T word”, at least in passenger service, because it’s scary sounding; and I for one have on occasion had this debate in my head as to if I was in “chop” or more properly “turbulence”.

May God have mercy upon their souls, they left a proper smoking crater didn’t they.
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Severe turbeluence usually requires a mx writeup/inspection, and what ever your airlines version of a flight safey report, asap, call to duty officer. So anything that requires paperwork or notifying management is probably under reported.
 
CFI A&P said:
What I'm seeing is that a large portion of people (both pilots in the influencer era and non-pilots) don't seem to grasp how much isn't "seen" in the aviation world. Such as a photo of someone at FL450 -> the general reaction is wow and cool. However, not much discussion about Coffin's Corner, or Mach Tuck, and other high altitude subjects.
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High altitude weather and aerodynamics are badly under-taught in the industry. You don’t really learn it in primary training, or if you do you brain dump it because it’s not immediately relevant, and once you go to a jet an existing knowledge of both is assumed to be a given.
 
There was some sluth who managed to find some ATC audio of an issue this young pilot had a few months ago where she got herself into a severe turbulence situation but kept referring to it as "moderate chop" and wasn't able to maintain altitude. The ATC barked back at her explaining that it's not "chop" if she cant maintain an altitude and that she needed to descend ASAP. My question is...where do these social media sluths find this crap online and dont they have a job or some other life responsibility to get to?
 
CFI A&P said:
There was a discussion about high altitude weather, aerodynamics, ATC vectors, the legacy radar systems commonly found in this model (by those who are flying or flew Lears) then someone blasts in here with "These post-COVID hires are just substandard.... They're not JetU material I'll tell you what!"

The identities of the crew and passengers are not known at this time, which means their qualifications are unknown. Why would you jump to the conclusion that they are inexperienced?
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I said nothing of that sort.


I made a commentary on trends I’ve seen in 121, when other guys were writing about stuff in 91 and 135.
 
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