Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach

[MikeD]

Don’t go too far the other way as to say NOTHING is taught. Merely, not enough. Another factor I would say is that technology has reduced how much folks need to know, for example, the aerodynamics on newer aircraft are much better especially at the edges of the envelope (high altitude, low and high speed), and FMCs that can give you an answer in seconds as to what altitude you can maintain right at that moment.

hence why things like Mach tuck were something one flying a Lear 24 would have to be very aware of; but someone flying a Lear 60 or 75 could probably know little to nothing about, and the aircraft takes care of that for them if they get near that performance edge. which is unfortunate, as back to basics should really be a thing.

 

[GypsyPilot]

Agree. It’s nothing to do with the specific FO here, it’s anyone who is in an operation like this with only about 2.5 or so years of total flying experience, and likely no real stepping stone(s) before arriving at that position. They truly don’t know how much they don’t know.

Like has been already said, it’s a story as old as time. Not the first, won’t be the last.

However, as i don’t fly corporate, what are the insurance company requirements for PIC and SIC experience in corporate flight operations? I imagine there are some? Especially if flying celebs or VIP type people?

I’ve been out of 135 for a long time, but I do remember some trips having pilot experience requirements (Wavern/Argus). But those were typically PIC driven, usually not SIC.

 

[Roger Roger]

hence why things like Mach tuck were something one flying a Lear 24 would have to be very aware of; but someone flying a Lear 60 or 75 could probably know little to nothing about, and the aircraft takes care of that for them if they get near that performance edge. which is unfortunate, as back to basics should really be a thing.

Yes, as in so many areas the basics should be understood if only to learn how much the tech is helping us.

Can’t speak personally to the Lear 60 as it’s an oddball neither fish nor fowl… at heart it’s still a 55 which is a derivative of the original Lear 23, but very much dressed up with fancy avionics and completely different engines from the rest of the turbofan Lears. But the wing, IIRC, is still at heart a Lear 31 wing, which traces its lineage again back to the 23, but with various leading edge cuffs and fixed devices and extensions and winglets etc so folks on here who’ve flown them would have to elaborate on the handling qualities. I was a bit surprised to read someone say that it did not have anti ice on the horizontal stab, as I thought all the LR-JET derivatives had the electrically heated blankets controlled by an electromechanical timer dating way back to the oldest Lears.

But that’s really just picking nits if you fly into the top of a developing Florida thunderstorm, and I hope we can all learn something from the NTSB investigation other than “don’t do that”.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Yep, been there done that.

I went from a fairly low time CFI (around 600 hours dual given, ~ 1000 TT) to right seat 135 King Air 90.

Training was legal but absolute bare minimum. Definitely hair on fire for me the first few trips (but also totally awesome and exciting).

I would’ve been useless if SHTF, because I was inexperienced and our training was garbage. I look back on those times after 15 years of 121 experience and just cringe.

I would NEVER allow someone I care about to fly on some rando 91/135 flight.

You were an overqualified RJ FO for 2007.


I remember Mesaba off the street mins were 600 TT, 50 ME. Pinnacle was 1000 TT, 100 ME, but if you did a bridge program CRJ course, it was Comm-Inst-ME with no minimum flight time requirement other than FAA certificate mind.

Crazy times (no pun intended).

 

[bLizZuE]

NTSB briefing said something along the lines of “some evidence of the aircraft breaking up” prior to impact.

 

[MikeD]

Yes, as in so many areas the basics should be understood if only to learn how much the tech is helping us.

Agreed. Lately, my experience has been that new pilots don’t think they need to know the basics, as they are “outdated”; and older pilots and instructors either don’t know the knowledge or have dumped it long ago. And not just this particular aviation subject, but others such as instruments. Unfortunate.

Can’t speak personally to the Lear 60 as it’s an oddball neither fish nor fowl… at heart it’s still a 55 which is a derivative of the original Lear 23, but very much dressed up with fancy avionics and completely different engines from the rest of the turbofan Lears. But the wing, IIRC, is still at heart a Lear 31 wing, which traces its lineage again back to the 23, but with various leading edge cuffs and fixed devices and extensions and winglets etc so folks on here who’ve flown them would have to elaborate on the handling qualities. I was a bit surprised to read someone say that it did not have anti ice on the horizontal stab, as I thought all the LR-JET derivatives had the electrically heated blankets controlled by an electromechanical timer dating way back to the oldest Lears.

Would love to know some specifics, as i don’t have any direct experience with any of these Lear series.

But that’s really just picking nits if you fly into the top of a developing Florida thunderstorm, and I hope we can all learn something from the NTSB investigation other than “don’t do that”.

Hoping too there’s a push for back to basics on weather, and not just the don’t do that, as you mention. Insofar as what this crew saw or didn’t see, what they knew or didn’t know, and what decisions they made or didn’t make; my fear is there may not be the physical evidence remaining to ever be able to determine that. Am hoping a CVR or even FDR somehow survived enough with some form of usable info. But the odds are low. as while those are stout units, they can only take so much before they too get destroyed.

 

[NovemberEcho]

There was some sluth who managed to find some ATC audio of an issue this young pilot had a few months ago where she got herself into a severe turbulence situation but kept referring to it as "moderate chop" and wasn't able to maintain altitude. The ATC barked back at her explaining that it's not "chop" if she cant maintain an altitude and that she needed to descend ASAP. My question is...where do these social media sluths find this crap online and dont they have a job or some other life responsibility to get to?

Omg that was her?! That was in my airspace. The controller working her then is and was a total dick. Someone telling you they can’t maintain altitude is not the time to be pedantic about what kind of turbulence they’re reporting. He is an embarrassment to the profession and is always snapping at pilots over the smallest things and doesn’t let things go. I fully expect a crash one day where the last thing the pilot hears is him yelling at them. Unfortunately we have a few like that now and it’s horrible working with them.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Omg that was her?! That was in my airspace. The controller working her then is and was a total dick. Someone telling you they can’t maintain altitude is not the time to be pedantic about what kind of turbulence they’re reporting. He is an embarrassment to the profession and is always snapping at pilots over the smallest things and doesn’t let things go. I fully expect a crash one day where the last thing the pilot hears is him yelling at them. Unfortunately we have a few like that now and it’s horrible working with them.

Ok, so that was my first reaction to listening to it, but out of respect for you specifically, I chose not to say anything. It seemed like everything up through the call to Talon at the end was to say "just admit you can't hold altitude"

 

[Stone Cold]

Omg that was her?! That was in my airspace. The controller working her then is and was a total dick. Someone telling you they can’t maintain altitude is not the time to be pedantic about what kind of turbulence they’re reporting. He is an embarrassment to the profession and is always snapping at pilots over the smallest things and doesn’t let things go. I fully expect a crash one day where the last thing the pilot hears is him yelling at them. Unfortunately we have a few like that now and it’s horrible working with them.

It didn’t sound like her. I think it was a different female PM. The TEB situation had more of an accent than the accident female. We’ll have to wait and see though.

 

[Stone Cold]

Yes, as in so many areas the basics should be understood if only to learn how much the tech is helping us.

Can’t speak personally to the Lear 60 as it’s an oddball neither fish nor fowl… at heart it’s still a 55 which is a derivative of the original Lear 23, but very much dressed up with fancy avionics and completely different engines from the rest of the turbofan Lears. But the wing, IIRC, is still at heart a Lear 31 wing, which traces its lineage again back to the 23, but with various leading edge cuffs and fixed devices and extensions and winglets etc so folks on here who’ve flown them would have to elaborate on the handling qualities. I was a bit surprised to read someone say that it did not have anti ice on the horizontal stab, as I thought all the LR-JET derivatives had the electrically heated blankets controlled by an electromechanical timer dating way back to the oldest Lears.

But that’s really just picking nits if you fly into the top of a developing Florida thunderstorm, and I hope we can all learn something from the NTSB investigation other than “don’t do that”.

The 60 was my first jet. I had 2400TT. It was definitely a challenge, but not insurmountable. As stated, it was the same basic wing as all the others, with big engines strapped on. It would climb like a bat out of hell, then cruise at M.76.

It did not have anti ice on the horizontal stab. I was surprised when I learned that. CAE, and later Bombardier training both said something to the effect of it doesn’t need it, and there’s been no indication of problems with it. That was 2007-2010 time frame.

The highest I ever took it was 470, and it did not want to be up there. We came down immediately from it. It was an empty leg, we were close to the destination, and we were close on fuel, so we were trying to get the most out of the aircraft. I never tried going up there again. I have about 2,000 hours in it a long time ago.

 

[MikeD]

The fact that the Lear impacted where it did, seemingly hitting nothing, and injuring only one person on the ground. It could’ve impacted anywhere else on its uncontrolled ballistic trajectory, with far more consequences. The impact crater is the standard high speed / high angle hole in the ground. Last one i saw of those was on scene 11 years ago of an Iraq AF F-16 that the pilot, unusually a solo BGen in rank, is suspected to have suffered spatial D, or GLOC, or both, as he came out of altitude in a near vertical dive, in AB, and was supersonic on impact. Nothing left of that one either, but at least in the middle of nowhere.

 

[mightynimbus]

I'm still stunned that no one on the ground was hurt or worse.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Reports are that the pax were a tech multimillionaire and his wife, young kids and nanny.

Also a report going around that the female SIC was texting her pilot fiance right before the accident about experiencing turbulence and icing.

If true, really makes you wonder what was going on in the other seat. Could also explain the ATC communication if the left seat was useless and she was still seeking external help.

Exclusive | Doomed Learjet co-pilot Nathalia Filgueiras texted boyfriend just minutes before deadly crash

“She just said, ‘I’ve got turbulence, I’ve got ice,'” her stepfather said.

nypost.com

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Anyone seen the media briefing with the 60 year member of general aviation community and jet pilot.


His part starts at 8:24





But here was 9:34

“My experience as a jet pilot. NEXRAD was depicting it as red. Not dark red or purple. I don’t think I would have been terribly reluctant to have flown through that…”




WOW. Is it common for Corpies to make live decisions using NEXRAD that is presenting 5-20 minute old weather data?

That sounds like a horribly stupid idea.




(Not saying this crew did it, just the comment by this guy in the media during the NTSB briefing).


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9utTZTQbKz8