ahw01
Well-Known Member
it was pretty full. Ahem
Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach
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invadertim
In my experence, its always my fault.
I kinda wonder if the underreporting is in part a phraseology issue; we go from “moderate” to “severe”, which has always seemed to me like we’re skipping a step. There’s no “heavy” turbulence, it’s always felt to me there should be one there. Severe sounds like an emergency, which by cracky it is I suppose, and that gets into the reluctance to declare emergencies when perhaps we should.
It also seems to me there’s a tendency to not use the “T word”, at least in passenger service, because it’s scary sounding; and I for one have on occasion had this debate in my head as to if I was in “chop” or more properly “turbulence”.
May God have mercy upon their souls, they left a proper smoking crater didn’t they.
CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
There was a discussion about high altitude weather, aerodynamics, ATC vectors, the legacy radar systems commonly found in this model (by those who are flying or flew Lears) then someone blasts in here with "These post-COVID hires are just substandard.... They're not JetU material I'll tell you what!"
The identities of the crew and passengers are not known at this time, which means their qualifications are unknown. Why would you jump to the conclusion that they are inexperienced?
Box hauler
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I really don’t see how that post applies but cool. Why did I take that from your post? Because it’s what you do over and over again. There is a reason most people disagree with 90% of what you have to say.
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
I think a few years ago it was they changed the definition for severe and added extreme turbulence but I agree severe sounds, well, too severe for the new definition.
DeltaAlphaNovember
Well-Known Member
I'll put myself on blast. Back in January 2019 we were flying CLT-PHX. Coming out of CLT we climbed up to FL240. The rides above that up to FL320 were bad. ATC said if we could get up to 320 it was a smooth ride. So up we went. From 250-315 it was a pretty nasty ride. Once we leveled off i made a pirep. I used the words heavy moderate, borderline severe. I admitted on the frequency that I know heavy moderate was not proper in airline speak but it was what I said. Of course everyone started asking where is that guy and informed them of our position.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
A lot of times we're looking out the window at the cells when we're requesting/requiring deviations, or we have a good paint. Our radars are decent for "tactical" avoidance, and we typically have no idea what your weather capabilities are. I often get "moderate-heavy-extreme precipitation at your twelve o'clock, five zero miles, advise if you need deviations," and I look out and see a line of low CBs 10,000' below . . . and likewise, I've had to deviate a few times prior to getting a word in edgewise due to time, or been vectored directly into a big phat cell I can see. Or I get told "nobody else is deviating," or "everyone else is getting through" when I'm looking at a gap that's closing, or a cell that's growing at an insanely high # of FPM. (And no, we won't "top" that big forkin' hunk of cauliflower we're pointing at)
Airplanes are small, thunderstorms are big, and I ain't goin in one if I can help it. But usually the problem can be dealt with long before it becomes a minutes or seconds matter situation.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
I've noticed a reluctance even to report "moderate" at times. But I've also observed the turbulence versus chop thing. We'll be bouncing around with the wings rocking, the yoke dancing like a hula girl, coffee threatening to spill out of my cup, and the FO will report it as "light, maybe a little moderate chop."
Somewhere along the way, I think people forgot that turbulence and chop aren't intensity ratings, but actually different.
Oxman
Well-Known Member
Exclusive | Learjet co-pilot in fatal Florida crash ID’d as 20-year-old who got her license in high school
The young aviator was previously featured in local media when she got her private pilot’s license at just 17 back in October 2023 — before she even had her driver’s license.
nypost.com
Learjet co-pilot in fatal Florida crash ID’d as 20-year-old who got her license in high school
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
Likely no. The 35 and 55s I flew did not. Even the 60 was a pretty manual airplane. I would have to go back and look at what the manuals say but guys at my shop would turn the engine anti ice off below a certain temp because "you couldn't get ice that cold" and I am not sure how widespread that practice was either.
Box hauler
Well-Known Member
I feel so sorry for her parents who probably saw footage of this only to abruptly find out it was their kid. It’s cruel how unfair and unforgiving life can beExclusive | Learjet co-pilot in fatal Florida crash ID’d as 20-year-old who got her license in high school
The young aviator was previously featured in local media when she got her private pilot’s license at just 17 back in October 2023 — before she even had her driver’s license.
Learjet co-pilot in fatal Florida crash ID’d as 20-year-old who got her license in high school
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DropTank
Well-Known Member
My radar is more accurate that yours.
I've had ATC frantically warn me of a devastating thunderstorm ahead when all I had was clear air confirmed by the Mark 3 Eyeball.
Opposite is true, "heading XXX will get you around it" When it most certainly will NOT.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Yeah, never liked that. I know ATC thinks they are helping but this can pressure people to make the wrong call.
Was going into ATL one day and ATC was vectoring everyone into the same shrinking hole. Meanwhile 20 miles south had a massive clearing. I told them I wanted to go to the big blue area to the south and everyone started to follow suit.
Hell, I forced DTW to turn the airport around once. Apparently having 3 planes in a row having to do windshear recoveries due to airspeed loss wasn't enough. ATC said the windshear was "smooth". Winds aloft we're a direct tailwind over 40 knots starting around 800 ft.
People are weird in this industry. Almost like they don't want to be perceived as the "weak" ones.
To be fair to ATC. Their tech is only so good and they have a lot in their plate that weather complicates. Easy to get fixated a solution even though a better one may has started to exist.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Exclusive | Learjet co-pilot in fatal Florida crash ID’d as 20-year-old who got her license in high school
The young aviator was previously featured in local media when she got her private pilot’s license at just 17 back in October 2023 — before she even had her driver’s license.
Learjet co-pilot in fatal Florida crash ID’d as 20-year-old who got her license in high school
View attachment 91154View attachment 91155
I may have to avoid the Internet the next couple of days - it's not going to be kind to her, even though this 40-something year old white dude would sound the same.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
I absolutely, 100%, unequivocally agree.
They also seem to want to "help" us without realizing that they're not really "helping" us.
"Hey, what's the RVR?"
"What do you need?"
... no, actually WHAT IS THE CURRENT RVR PLEASE AND THANK YOU.
Weather observations can be the same way, especially at smaller stations.
The other morning I was taxiing in Eugene, and it was reporting 1/4SM. I couldn't see the freaking lighted taxiway signs before dawn with the lights on max. It was about 300-600RVR.
Of course, WN went. But even they were taxiing at a crawl.
I actually reached a point while taxiing where I was just like "This is ridiculous. Legal, technically, but this is absolutely not 1/4SM." I pulled over on a taxiway, left my lights on, and announced on the CTAF that we were going to just chill there until we could see.
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
For those of you who haven't heard the audio but are still thinking of listening, do your best to NOT DO SO. I made the unfortunate mistake of listening last night before all the warnings about how it went down. As a result, sleep was hard to come by last night and was fitful at best. Now, it appears there is a face to go with the voice which makes it all so much worse.
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
You aren't kidding. Twitter was absolutely brutal yesterday/last night. I know a lot of people out there just genuinely suck but on that platform, it's exhausting.