Latest Eagle AIP rejected

Seggy said:
Well if they properly used the ALPA resources they had that 'mistake' (I don't think it is a mistake) would not have happened. Everyone bitches ALPA does nothing, but preventing this type of letter going out is EXACTLY what ALPA does very well.
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I agree, and I'll take it a step further. Our company has been hijacked by the Eagle Lounge crowd. Read that email again.

It was written by John Gardner. His is the only name signed at the end. John Gardner is a big Eagle Lounge guy and regularly goes on that forum to feel like a "cool kid" and get back slaps from his "boys".

As you can imagine the rhetoric on Eagle Lounge is and has always been over the top and disconnected. It doesn't help that a major Eagle Lounger is one of the MEC reps. The same group of Eagle Loungers proceeded to hijack the "discussion" page on Facebook and raged a massive psy-ops war on any pilot who was either voting YES or was on the fence.

All this tough talk of "bring it on" is great until five, six, nine months go by and we haven't heard a peep from AA. That is the biggest danger now: silence. Not more threats...but simply being left to fade into oblivion.

I hope Ray is the first Captain displaced back to FO. Poetic justice at it's finest.
 
Cptnchia said:
Or maybe it's time to finally stand up to management and quit doing business the way ALPA has done it the last two decades because clearly that way hasn't been working.

Eagle management basically said, "Vote this down and we are done talking. We will shut you down and kick you all to the curb."

All the MEC said was, "Go for it bitches."

About time someone finally stood up and called their bluff. If nothing else, it will help to hasten the demise of the regional industry.
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I know most of the guys on the MEC. I know Bill Sprague. And I know the spirt of the people that were in that room today, and that is EXACTLY what happened.

The company THREATENED us when their position looks *incredibly* weak and is unsupported by any hard numbers or financials. So now it's fine. They don't want us? They can't have us. We'll all seek employment elsewhere and they can deal with that mess.

You know how Republic/CHQ is dropping flying? A lot of that is AA flying. Sabre savvy types here have looked a few months deep and notice that flights we lost to them are going to be done by us again.

The pilots of American Eagle are going old school. You wanna threaten us? FINE. Let us know when you want us to stop showing up. Your call, bitches!
 
amorris311 said:
This is where most people get upset. Everything up to the bolder was good but the rest makes people feel like you are talking down to them. Just an observation.
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I'm not talking down to anyone. I include myself in the group of people who fly airplanes and should listen to the professionals. But that's the difference: I listen to the professionals. There were many times in a caucus room where I got on an emotional rant about one contract issue or another. And then Yoda would speak for a minutes, and I would listen. Why? Because he knows what the hell he's doing at a bargaining table, and I fly airplanes for a living (and manage real estate ;) ).
 
Ray's CA seat is very safe, remember he bust upgrade twice. So he has a good number of CAs below him. Also keep in mind John is about to flow in the next few months.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not talking down to anyone. I include myself in the group of people who fly airplanes and should listen to the professionals. But that's the difference: I listen to the professionals. There were many times in a caucus room where I got on an emotional rant about one contract issue or another. And then Yoda would speak for a minutes, and I would listen. Why? Because he knows what the hell he's doing at a bargaining table, and I fly airplanes for a living (and manage real estate ;) ).
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Yoda makes everything seem so much better. :)
 
I used to be a voting member of the Colgan and Pinnacle MEC's.

Personally, I would never hold something as controversial as this back from a membership vote. There are no protections from keeping Status Reps in check. Pilots deserve a say in their futures, bad move by the status reps at the Envoy MEC.

Don't misconstrue my opinion as a suggestion that the Envoy pilots should accept the AIP, because I don't have an opinion. I just feel like when you're talking about folks lives and families, then those folks should have a say. Not because 5 guys think it's a rotten apple.

Just my $.02.

PS- That communication is a disgrace. A 5-4 vote and you put out something like that? Communications failure. I can imagine all the guys sitting in a hotel room who have to call their wives and explain whats happening...all because of a "heat-of-the-moment" comm.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Now I remember why I stopped reading crap here anymore.

Proud of Eagle today. Emotional or not, if there was ever a time to take a stand, this is it.
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The only crap I've seen was an emotionally charged letter from a Communications Chair. What other 'crap' are you talking about?
 
Gonzo said:
Ray's CA seat is very safe, remember he bust upgrade twice. So he has a good number of CAs below him. Also keep in mind John is about to flow in the next few months.
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Yep, he is. As is Val and many of the most vocal NO voters. Talk about pulling up the ladder. Those guys are literally months away from AA and will not have to live with any consequences.

As for Ray: He is a pretty junior Captain. If and when the fertilizer hits the fan around here and the displacements begin he will be one of the first ones. I have heard from a couple of school house guys horror stories regarding Ray both in training and out on the line.

Next time you see Ray ask him why he demanded 12 hours of rest from crew scheduling once. After only one leg to the overnight. Then ask him why he spends 15 minutes building faux waypoints into the FMS because he feels uncomfortable flying the LGA departures in green world.

This is the guy leading the charge on the MEC and getting all the younger pilots riled up. We have been hijacked,
 
I disagree with that, Smittey. Things shouldn't go to the membership for a vote just because it's a big issue. Things should go to the membership because the MEC feels that they can endorse it and it's in the best interest of the membership. Sending everything out to the membership whenever management makes a threat eliminates the check valve of the MEC that has all of the data, all of the advice from experts, and all of the input from the membership. That's not how a representative democracy is supposed to work. The MEC exists for a reason. But they need to behave responsibly with the power that they have.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I disagree with that, Smittey. Things shouldn't go to the membership for a vote just because it's a big issue. Things should go to the membership because the MEC feels that they can endorse it and it's in the best interest of the membership. Sending everything out to the membership whenever management makes a threat eliminates the check valve of the MEC that has all of the data, all of the advice from experts, and all of the input from the membership. That's not how a representative democracy is supposed to work. The MEC exists for a reason. But they need to behave responsibly with the power that they have.
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Fair point.

But with a situation as grave as this - a threatened shutdown - the MEC needs to educate and let the membership decide. Again, just personal opinion as a former MEC'er and now a line pilot.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I include myself in the group of people who fly airplanes and should listen to the professionals. But that's the difference: I listen to the professionals.
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You must know that our negotiating committee is a couple line pilots, right? If alpa was serious about promoting our careers, they'd have used some of our dues money to hire professional negotiators. That may be emotional but it's also a fact.
 
How can you educate a pilot group with NDAs signed?, they knew the truth but obviously can't talk about it. Same thing happened at Colgan, and anywhere else for that matter. Like @ATN_Pilot said MEC's are there for a reason.
 
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Gonzo said:
You do know ALPA has professional negotiators in the room with the pilots. Seth Rosen, he is so good APA rented him from ALPA.
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Fair, but is it his show? There seem to have been people with Jackson on record saying he'd do whatever it takes to go to AA faster (paraphrased). If that's true - if - then that indicates to me that the front wasn't unified.
 
roundout said:
Fair, but is it his show? There seem to have been people with Jackson on record saying he'd do whatever it takes to go to AA faster (paraphrased). If that's true - if - then that indicates to me that the front wasn't unified.
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Some background on Mr. Jackson if you didn't know he is a lawyer, he dad was a check airmen at Delta. With his resume he is going to have no problem getting hired off the street. I am no fan of his and think he presents himself in a very unprofessional manner but stop listening to the BS and just ask him.
 
I think we're missing the point. It doesn't matter any more. It might if AAG comes full circle back to us but right now it doesn't. So if in fact this deal was torpedoed by the lounge 10%, how do we go about getting it back on the table? Seems like too little too late. So, I ask again....where do we go now? Business as usual? Quit and apply at home depot? Update the resume at airlineapps?

On the bankruptcy TA it was nearly impossible find a yes voter but it passed overwhelmingly. So what happened to those people? Did they just think it would work out, or did the reps misrepresent them?
 
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