Latest Delta Rumors

ATN_Pilot said:
People who were once happy-go-lucky kool aid drinkers don't become disgruntled for no reason. The JetBlue pilots have slowly reached the point of being bitter, and it's not without justification. It's not that they think it's perfect somewhere else. It's that they know that it's better, although still not perfect.

In talking with hundreds of JetBlue pilots during the last organizing drive, it was clear that they all understood that a union isn't a panacea, and no other carrier is perfect. But they also understood that their treatment was quite subpar for a major airline, and they deserve better. Such an attitude shouldn't be discouraged.
Click to expand...

I hear you. It just seems that some of them are irrationally upset, to the point of making things worse. I think a CBA is in our best interest, but overall I'm getting exactly what I thought I would get when I applied here. Some people seem to forget how far JetBlue has come, given that it is still a very new company.
 
Derg said:
Well, tell your angry co-workers that we have a big DPA versus ALPA civil war going on.

Additionally, a cultural war between people that think we're shiny U-boat commanders with the absolute best contract on Earth against people that feel we're still working under sub-par conditions.
Click to expand...

I've been on the jumpseat with the U-boat commander types.
 
Derg said:
Well, tell your angry co-workers that we have a big DPA versus ALPA civil war going on.
Click to expand...

I find the current state of the DPA v ALPA fight rather humorous only because DALPA finally launched their offensive when their foe is already dead. The movement is done, kaput, finito! DPA killed itself. In all honesty the possibility intrigued me, fundamentally anyway. I'm smart enough to realize that the implementation would probably come at the expense of what little leverage momentum we currently have. The residual benefit seems to be a renewed since of DALPA's need to reach out and more importantly LISTEN to the membership. We'll see if it lasts. Atleast they killed the potential reserve rule changes that were proposed because they listened to the pilots.
 
Derg said:
Well, tell your angry co-workers that we have a big DPA versus ALPA civil war going on.

Additionally, a cultural war between people that think we're shiny U-boat commanders with the absolute best contract on Earth against people that feel we're still working under sub-par conditions.
Click to expand...

Tell me more about these u-boats. Bases? Pay? Days off? Are you hunted by the British only? Or have the Americans joined the fight also? I think the risk for u-boat PIC may be worth it it's only the British, but if the Americans are on board, I may wait it out for Italy to offer positions.

Please advise.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
but overall I'm getting exactly what I thought I would get when I applied here.
Click to expand...

I've never really understood comments like these. I knew when I came to AirTran that I was starting under an old, long-since amendable CBA with sub-par FO rates. But that didn't at all mean that I didn't think it should be better. Accepting employment terms as a newhire doesn't mean that you accept them as being ok for the long-haul. Just that you're willing to take them until you're able to achieve improvements.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I've never really understood comments like these. I knew when I came to AirTran that I was starting under an old, long-since amendable CBA with sub-par FO rates. But that didn't at all mean that I didn't think it should be better. Accepting employment terms as a newhire doesn't mean that you accept them as being ok for the long-haul. Just that you're willing to take them until you're able to achieve improvements.
Click to expand...

I never said that things can't or shouldn't improve. But I knew when I applied here that it wasn't Delta. I honestly don't think it CAN be Delta and keep growing/survive.

So yes, we can improve things and strive for better, but to think that we will ever truly compete with a legacy in terms of pay and benefits is reaching, in my opinion.

I'm happy at a carrier that is stable/growing and pays decently well, with a small seniority list. I'm happy trading pay for movement and QOL. That's my motivation for applying and going to JetBlue. I held a line after 5 months. The scheduling system allows me to trade and get a weekend or two off. Life is good.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I hear you. It just seems that some of them are irrationally upset, to the point of making things worse. I think a CBA is in our best interest, but overall I'm getting exactly what I thought I would get when I applied here. Some people seem to forget how far JetBlue has come, given that it is still a very new company.
Click to expand...

The organizers have been doing good and stupid things.

I think doing stupid things like " the battle is won and lost in the kitchen" as a campaign to get the wives to infiltrate wives' Facebook groups to influence them doesn't help. I can post copies of some of the posts from bluetruth suggesting that "spy type wives" cut and paste anti union comments from wives onto the bluetruth site to out them and discourage them from posting on Facebook. That went viral on FB and was squashed. Make your own decisions and don't expect us to influence your spouses one way or another!

Then some organizers actually wasted time trying to talk to a 61 year old who is anti union and, in doing so, bought him a beer. Well, the pro union "extremes" are all over him for being a CA and allowing a FO to buy him a beer. His story is that the FO got up, said good night and left. He says he went to pay the two beer tab and it had been paid. Who knows, but it's a stupid thing to make into a Grand case! It was a single beer, they say! So there are a lot of stupid stories flying around. They all detract from the fact that, despite being better for most parts than regionals (certainly not insurance), the company is way behind in comparison to peer sets.

And I know they don't consider DH's airline in their peer set. But DH's airline considers them a peer. So that's why I care. DH's contract is amendable in 2015. I want JB to have decent rules, at and insurance, not settling for what is. I'm afraid they have already had so much taken away, that this will be an issue. For example, what will they have to give up to get decent insurance? I certainly don't want DH's airline to stoop to this new low in total compensation.
 
HRDiva said:
And I know they don't consider DH's airline in their peer set. But DH's airline considers them a peer. So that's why I care. DH's contract is amendable in 2015. I want JB to have decent rules, at and insurance, not settling for what is. I'm afraid they have already had so much taken away, that this will be an issue. For example, what will they have to give up to get decent insurance? I certainly don't want DH's airline to stoop to this new low in total compensation.
Click to expand...

And I think we do a lot of the same flying as his airline. However, including them in the peer set drags down what our average pay should be, which is why we're trying to keep them out. Now, if we could get a weighted peer set where it used how many pilots are at a carrier, it would be more fair. However, they way it's done on our pay scale is 5 year CA pay divided by number of airlines. So, Delta carries as much weight as Virgin America would if they were in our peer set, despite the fact that Delta has exponentially more pilots. It's not a shot against Virgin or Spirit pilots, it's just math.

And I've had pretty much the same experiences PhilosopherPilot has had. We still have a few over here that seem to think that once we get representation, the sun will shine, the healthcare will improve and they'll dive into money like Uncle Scrooge. The hard truth is getting representation is the start of a long, long uphill batter towards finally getting a CBA. I honestly don't think some of the guys have the stamina for a fight like that. Personally, I don't. ALPA sapped all the strength out of me at my last carrier. That doesn't mean I don't think it can or should be done. I just know I'm not gonna be one of the ones doing it.

The guys that kill me are the ones that came here furloughed from another carrier, got the quick upgrade and are now talking about how much better Delta/United/American is but won't accept recall. Well, which is it? I'm a big believer in if you're miserable, change something. If you're not happy going to work, make a change, be it another job or another position in the same company. I'm sure a lot of movement will happen over here once hiring ramps up at the other carriers, but it gets EXHAUSTING listening to people go on and on about how much their life sucks compared to the guy over at Delta.....who is likely telling HIS FO how much his life sucks compared to the guy at FedEx......
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Many pilots at AirTran used to say the same thing. And then we achieved a contract that had pay rates, benefits, and work rules commensurate with the other major carriers. All without breaking the bank. Don't be a defeatist.
Click to expand...

How'd that growth work out after that contract?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Perhaps you hadn't heard, but we had a little merger thing happen.
Click to expand...


And how's that growth working out? 717s going to Delta and constant complaining about how the AirTran guys got hosed is what I hear.

There's a fine line between "defeatest" and "realist." If you think jetBlue can pay the same level as Delta with their route structure, well, you live in an interesting reality.....
 
kellwolf said:
And how's that growth working out? 717s going to Delta and constant complaining about how the AirTran guys got hosed is what I hear.
Click to expand...

What does that have to do with the topic being discussed? The stagnation at SWA has absolutely nothing to do with pilot pay. In case you haven't noticed, we're sitting on billions of dollars in cash and still profitable. The stagnation is all management incompetence. They simply don't know what to do now that they're so big.

There's a fine line between "defeatest" and "realist." If you think jetBlue can pay the same level as Delta with their route structure, well, you live in an interesting reality.....
Click to expand...

I haven't looked at detailed E&FA numbers for JetBlue, so I couldn't tell you the actual numbers that they could afford. What I can tell you without hesitation is that they will be able to someday, so a defeatist attitude is counter-productive. And what I can also tell you is that they can damned well afford better than they're giving you now.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
What does that have to do with the topic being discussed? The stagnation at SWA has absolutely nothing to do with pilot pay. In case you haven't noticed, we're sitting on billions of dollars in cash and still profitable. The stagnation is all management incompetence. They simply don't know what to do now that they're so big.
Click to expand...

The arguement has been great contract vs growth, to which you responded with AirTran's contract. Other airlines have had great contracts right up to the point they went bankrupt. Comair is a perfect example. In some ways, so was MesaColNicle. It IS possible to overstep your bounds. Like I said, defeatist vs realist.


I haven't looked at detailed E&FA numbers for JetBlue, so I couldn't tell you the actual numbers that they could afford. What I can tell you without hesitation is that they will be able to someday, so a defeatist attitude is counter-productive. And what I can also tell you is that they can damned well afford better than they're giving you now.
Click to expand...

We're not going to be flying international, so we're not going to have the same route structure as a Delta or a United. I agree they can afford better than what we've got right now, but the way you're talking is going WAY over what the company could actually do right now or in the near future. Personally, I don't want to negotiate a great contract only to find myself looking for work because I got furloughed. Maybe it'll be great for the industry as a whole, but it won't do me any good to take one for the team. If that's being a "defeatist" then go ahead and buy me the friggin' t-shirt. I'll wear it proudly. A defeatest would say "There's no point. We'll never be any good, so why bother." A realist says "Okay, I'd LIKE to see that happen, and it might some day. But the numbers just don't add up right now." What sense does it make to ask for things BEFORE the system can support it? It's asking for financial issues in the short term.
 
kellwolf said:
The arguement has been great contract vs growth, to which you responded with AirTran's contract. Other airlines have had great contracts right up to the point they went bankrupt. Comair is a perfect example. In some ways, so was MesaColNicle. It IS possible to overstep your bounds. Like I said, defeatist vs realist.
Click to expand...

You're talking about FFD carriers. Apples and sneakers.

We're not going to be flying international, so we're not going to have the same route structure as a Delta or a United.
Click to expand...

I would be shocked if JetBlue pilots weren't flying long-haul international 15 years from now. It'll either be JetBlue doing it, or through a merger. Either way, no need for defeatism.

I agree they can afford better than what we've got right now, but the way you're talking is going WAY over what the company could actually do right now or in the near future.
Click to expand...

No, I'm talking about doing what they can reasonably afford. Which is a lot better than what they're doing.
 
It's the Communist versus the Druid!

Put your bets down, boys! :)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You'


I would be shocked if JetBlue pilots weren't flying long-haul international 15 years from now. It'll either be JetBlue doing it, or through a merger. Either way, no need for defeatism.
Click to expand...

And if that happens, we can talk about the wages then. Why demand to be paid long haul carrier wages when we're not a long haul carrier? That's realism, not defeatism. Or as I like to call it, being reasonable. When did using reason become defeatism or being a "blue juicer?" 'Cause back in the Pinnacle days, there actually WAS a line past what the company could afford....


No, I'm talking about doing what they can reasonably afford. Which is a lot better than what they're doing.
Click to expand...

And, as I said, they can do better, and they should. You mentioned "competing with legacies in terms of pay and benefits." Maybe we should define "compete." I'm okay with average in the peer set. We're below that now, and I'm HOPING we'll get there (at least in pay) before 2014. If you're thinking matching Delta or United's pay, then I DON'T think we can "reasonably afford" that. Again, realism.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top