Kellwolf's Major Airline Experience

[jtrain609]

Building the airplane sure makes you feel like a badass, but I'm not sure that there are benefits beyond that. I'd rather spend my time really biting into the complexities of the automation involved in the aircraft, and how to manipulate the systems and data you have in front of you vs. spending time learning at what temp the 16th stage fan blades are certified to.

 

[derg]

We barely even learn that. Seriously.


Sent from my free Obama Phone

 

[kellwolf]

With the 190 at least, it's kinda counter productive to learn too much about the systems in depth. It's way better to learn what the autation does when and how to make it do something. Knowing bleed pressure won't save you from a violation. Knowing that the autopilot has freaky deviations in certain regimes might. Besides, if something goes wrong in this plane, you're probably going back to the gate for a power down and reset anyway. Knowing the systems won't fix it.

 

[Nick]

With the 190 at least, it's kinda counter productive to learn too much about the systems in depth. It's way better to learn what the autation does when and how to make it do something. Knowing bleed pressure won't save you from a violation. Knowing that the autopilot has freaky deviations in certain regimes might. Besides, if something goes wrong in this plane, you're probably going back to the gate for a power down and reset anyway. Knowing the systems won't fix it.

Yeah, the more modern the plane, the less value there is in trying to understand any system to the depth that a mechanic does.

I'd much prefer to fly with someone who doesn't get lost in VNAV on a descend-via arrival with big tailwind and ice thrust, than someone who can tell me some obscure fact about the windshield heat system.

I'm on the 170 series so since it's basically the same airplane, I think you will love flying the 190!

 

[kellwolf]

I'm on the 170 series so since it's basically the same airplane, I think you will love flying the 190!

I'm already addicted to the HUD on the 190. I kinda don't want to bid the Airbus down the road because I won't have it anymore.

Today was the first lesson on procedures. Talked about how jetBlue briefs approaches, departures and arrivals, went over cockpit flows and checklists. Started with a dark airplane, ran the power up and receiving checklists and went from there. I spent a couple of hours last night in front of the flight deck poster working on flows. They aren't really flows as much as they are "to do" lists since they kinda hop all over the place. Toss in some handy acronyms, though, and I can keep everything straight. Went through the before start checklist, started the engines, after start, before takeoff and did a normal takeoff profile. Set up for an ILS and did a precision approach profile, followed by the after landing and parking checklists. Break. Rinse and repeat.

It's nice being with a CA in the FTD rather than another FO since I can just stick with my stuff and do it multiple times. Tomorrow is Procedure #2, which is pretty much the same thing, just with a go around, a hold and a non-precision approach tossed in.

One thing about jetBlue, a lot of the stuff that IS set in stone at Pinnacle is not here. For example, do a flow wrong on a PC, and you get barked at. For example, transfer the bleeds wrong (or in some cases turn off the APU before turning off the landing lights) turns into a long debrief discussion. Here, as long as it gets done, no harm, no foul. Hence the reason the flows aren't necessarily flows. I asked if I could get the flaps last instead of first since it flowed better that way. Blew my mind when they said "Sure." At Pinnacle, there was a specific way you were supposed to brief approaches. Here, as long as you hit the big ticket items, it doesn't matter. It's really a "big picture" type thing.

 

[DE727UPS]

"One thing about jetBlue, a lot of the stuff that IS set in stone at Pinnacle is not here. For example, do a flow wrong on a PC, and you get barked at. For example, transfer the bleeds wrong (or in some cases turn off the APU before turning off the landing lights) turns into a long debrief discussion. Here, as long as it gets done, no harm, no foul"

OMG. I'm now going to waste 30 minutes of my life I'll never get back. But...

You know why it was that way at Pinnacle? It's cause the training dept got populated by folks from Jet University. And you know why they did it that way at Jet University? Cause they thought that's what it took to be an airline pilot. This is the problem with training people to be airline pilots from square one rather than just teaching people to be PILOTS from square one. People that work their way up from nothing part 61 learn to follow their instincts rather than follow a script. Jet U followed the script that was supposedly important because airline pilots must blindly follow scripts. The next thing you know, you end up with a training dept that says you have to say gear down before flaps 30 on the landing checklist even though it was only a three item checklist that you only did to check your flow. You already did the items. It doesn't matter diddly squat what manner you read the items back as long as your checking the squares that they got done. It's the checking of the squares that's important, not the order you check them in....good grief.

I'm so glad my training dept has the big picture.

 

[Hacker15e]

Building the airplane sure makes you feel like a badass, but I'm not sure that there are benefits beyond that. I'd rather spend my time really biting into the complexities of the automation involved in the aircraft, and how to manipulate the systems and data you have in front of you vs. spending time learning at what temp the 16th stage fan blades are certified to.

I think the answer is "both" vs just one or the other. Learning and becoming proficient with the automation is certainly one aspect of mastering your aircraft, but it is equal to importance in knowing how it all works at a detailed level.

I disagree that the only value of in-depth knowledge of your ship is to "feel like a badass" -- let's recall that the singular most important purpose of pilots being in the front of the airplane is to get them, the crew, and the passengers safely on the ground when stuff gets sideways. In depth knowledge of systems allows pilots to interpret indications, flying qualities, and responses to control inputs that may not match up with every EP printed in the flight manual, discussed in academics, or practiced in the sim. Such knowledge, matched up with experience, judgment, and logical/critical thinking, is what leads to those good outcomes from bad and confusing (and perhaps never-seen-before) situations.

Great knowledge of the automation sure isn't the only thing that Haynes and Sullenberger and Champion de Crespigny (and a long line of others throughout aviation history) needed to save their ships and pax.

So, while being able to play the FMS like a virtuoso is an important aspect of your airmanship, so equally is your ability to know your craft inside and out...just in case.

kellwolf, sorry for derailing your thread here. It is fun to read and good bits of info -- thanks!

 

[Hacker15e]

People that work their way up from nothing part 61 learn to follow their instincts rather than follow a script. Jet U followed the script that was supposedly important because airline pilots must blindly follow scripts.

Outstanding point -- not in terms of being a criticism of Jet U (which I'm sure is valid, but I have zero personal knowledge of), but in terms of the patently false idea that being a "professional" aviator = following a script and never needing/wanting/having to exercise judgment and airmanship.

 

[Jet]

Kellwolf - Thank you for this write up, this is great stuff! I have a question for you that is a little off topic so I apologize in advance. Do you think there is a significant amount of furloughed UAL pilots at your airline? I was thinking about this the other day and it made me wonder if there is a new contract that may attract some to take the recall and create movement for you. What do you think?

 

[kellwolf]

Kellwolf - Thank you for this write up, this is great stuff! I have a question for you that is a little off topic so I apologize in advance. Do you think there is a significant amount of furloughed UAL pilots at your airline? I was thinking about this the other day and it made me wonder if there is a new contract that may attract some to take the recall and create movement for you. What do you think?

I honestly don't know. I know there are several AMR, Delta and US Airways guys around. I would assume there are a few UAL guys as well. Not that this by any means is a scientific survery, but every furloughed Delta guy I've talked to at jetBlue has said they're going back to Delta. AA guys are about 50/50 depending on what happens with the bankruptcy. US Airways guys are pretty much staying put. UAL guys, I would imagine it's a tough call for them if they're more than halfway up the jetBlue seniority list.

Today was the 3rd day of Procedures training. Started off pretty much just like the first two, did all of the stuff at the gate, programmed the FMS, ran the numbers through the laptop, input those, pushed and started. Taxi out, take off. We got some re-routes to practice plugging things into the FMS, then climbed up the FL190 so we got the climb and transition flows done. Talked about approach briefings, then descended for an ILS into BUF. Introduced go-arounds at this point. Note to CRJ drivers going to the 190....you WILL disconnect the autothrottles on a go around at least once. The AT DISC button is where the TOGA button is on the CRJ. This far, I've dodged the bullet, but I DID say "Flagship" instead of "jetBlue" on a radio call today. D'oh! Went missed, did a hold to get the practice setting it up in the FMS, then vectored back around for the RNAV into BUF. Nice thing about this plane and this company is we can do VNAV and precision like approaches on non-precision approaches. No more "VS down 1.0, ALTS CAP, set next altitude.....VS down 1.0, ALTS CAP, set next altitude" etc. This one is dial in the crossing altitude at the FAF, arm VNAV, and let the plane do all the work. You just have to keep a close eye on it if there's a hefty tailwind.

Landed, did the after landing flow and checklist, parking checks, and shut 'er down. Tomorrow we get a few more things tossed in (VOR approach and non-normals), and we should get checked off on normal takeoffs and precision approaches.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You know why it was that way at Pinnacle? It's cause the training dept got populated by folks from Jet University. And you know why they did it that way at Jet University? Cause they thought that's what it took to be an airline pilot. This is the problem with training people to be airline pilots from square one rather than just teaching people to be PILOTS from square one. People that work their way up from nothing part 61 learn to follow their instincts rather than follow a script. Jet U followed the script that was supposedly important because airline pilots must blindly follow scripts. The next thing you know, you end up with a training dept that says you have to say gear down before flaps 30 on the landing checklist even though it was only a three item checklist that you only did to check your flow. You already did the items. It doesn't matter diddly squat what manner you read the items back as long as your checking the squares that they got done. It's the checking of the squares that's important, not the order you check them in....good grief.

I'm gonna go ahead and call bull**** on that post. Jet U graduated at best 65-75 pilots that actually got hired at Pinnacle and made it through. The very first ones through were in the Nov/Dec 2006 class. Those guys saw the left seat and are now looking at a downgrade, if they haven't been already. The rest of the majority were all hired in 2007 (myself included) and were career FOs at 9E. The training department had maybe two or three guys from Jet U, and that's about it. The majority of the training department was populated by the Memphis Northern Mississippi flying club, and the checkairmen giving rides were definetly senior Memphis boys. Maybe you meant to say Gulfstream Academy, and there may have been instructors from there. But the majority of the instructors (at least in the sim and FTDs) were all pretty senior. Most are bailing out to Fedex now. By the time any Jet U guys actually got on line and eligible to transfer to a teaching position, it was already summer 2008 and the hiring had stopped. 9E didn't hire then until summer 2010, and the majority of instructors were still pretty senior MEM folks. You thought you'd take this chance to blindly blame Jet U for Pinnacle's training problems just to take a cheap shot at the program and because of your ill feelings towards Jet U. Unfortunately for you, your post is mostly BS and without any fact to back it up.

As for Jet U, they taught the script that PINNACLE wanted taught, not the other way around. It was the exact same thing as what the 9E training syallbus was, word for word. Jet U didn't teach anything different that Pinnacle didn't instruct them to. All manuals, profiles, flows, memory items, etc, were all 100% Pinnacle-original.

As for your checklist discipline, it goes in order, and I can't imagine any airline in which you just randomly read the items from the landing checklist. You don't say "Flaps 30" before "gear down" on the checklist. As best as I can recall on the 9E landing checklist, it was "gear down, 3 green, down 3 green, thrust reversers armed, flight attendant notified, to the box complete. Then once flaps were 45, you called flaps 45, boxed items, and flaps 45 landing checklist complete. You could configure as necessary, flaps 8, flaps 20, and even flaps 30. Then it was "gear down, before landing check to the box." Then the PM read those items above. Then once you needed flaps 45, it was "flaps 45, boxed item." PM responded flaps 45 indicating, before landing check complete. So..... what was the complication in that?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Congrats again, kell! And good luck! Curious, why not bid the bus? More pay right? Is it longer reserve on the 320 vs the 190?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Unfortunately for you, your post is mostly BS and without any fact to back it up.

Networking!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Networking!

You'd let a factually incorrect post about airline training (that you went through) go unchecked? This is also the same guy that attempted to threaten my employment with my current airline. There is no such thing as 'network' between him and I.

 

[Maurus]

I'm gonna go ahead and call bull**** on that post. Jet U graduated at best 65-75 pilots that actually got hired at Pinnacle and made it through. The very first ones through were in the Nov/Dec 2006 class. Those guys saw the left seat and are now looking at a downgrade, if they haven't been already. The rest of the majority were all hired in 2007 (myself included) and were career FOs at 9E. The training department had maybe two or three guys from Jet U, and that's about it. The majority of the training department was populated by the Memphis Northern Mississippi flying club, and the checkairmen giving rides were definetly senior Memphis boys. Maybe you meant to say Gulfstream Academy, and there may have been instructors from there. But the majority of the instructors (at least in the sim and FTDs) were all pretty senior. Most are bailing out to Fedex now. By the time any Jet U guys actually got on line and eligible to transfer to a teaching position, it was already summer 2008 and the hiring had stopped. 9E didn't hire then until summer 2010, and the majority of instructors were still pretty senior MEM folks. You thought you'd take this chance to blindly blame Jet U for Pinnacle's training problems just to take a cheap shot at the program and because of your ill feelings towards Jet U. Unfortunately for you, your post is mostly BS and without any fact to back it up.

As for Jet U, they taught the script that PINNACLE wanted taught, not the other way around. It was the exact same thing as what the 9E training syallbus was, word for word. Jet U didn't teach anything different that Pinnacle didn't instruct them to. All manuals, profiles, flows, memory items, etc, were all 100% Pinnacle-original.

As for your checklist discipline, it goes in order, and I can't imagine any airline in which you just randomly read the items from the landing checklist. You don't say "Flaps 30" before "gear down" on the checklist. As best as I can recall on the 9E landing checklist, it was "gear down, 3 green, down 3 green, thrust reversers armed, flight attendant notified, to the box complete. Then once flaps were 45, you called flaps 45, boxed items, and flaps 45 landing checklist complete. You could configure as necessary, flaps 8, flaps 20, and even flaps 30. Then it was "gear down, before landing check to the box." Then the PM read those items above. Then once you needed flaps 45, it was "flaps 45, boxed item." PM responded flaps 45 indicating, before landing check complete. So..... what was the complication in that?

I think Jet U was just an example to pull from many. Just replace it with "airline pilot mills" and it works just fine. Teaching people to fly a little diamond like a jet at an airline neglects part of learning at the primary level of training.

The Checklists are only there to check your flow. That is it. If you do a before landing flow you don't have to read all the items in order on the before landing checklist. As long as all are read/verified by the PM the purpose of the checklist has been successful.

In the end the people at the basic level that are teaching people to be airline pilots are just following the SOPs and such but no actual background to offer anything else. As a result they start harping on what they think is important such as checklist order (within a specified section), hit vs push, throttle vs power lever, ect. That crap then gets passed on into actual airlines. Primacy is hard to kick.

Of course this doesn't need fleshed out here anyway at this point. Kellwolf has a good thread going here that doesn't need hijacked.

 

[kellwolf]

What DE727UPS was getting at wasn't really the checklist, it's the order in which things are called. I remember very distinctly being called out for saying things like "Flaps 30, gear down" during a PC when I was supposed to say "Gear down, flaps 30." In the grand scheme of things, doesn't really freaking matter since you're calling for both at once? No, but it was apparently a pet peeve of someone high up in the training department, so they fixated on it. They would focus on things like that rather than fixing all the "You'll learn it on the line" answers we got in initial training. When you're in upgrade training, asking questions and STILL get the "You'll learn it when you get out there," there are serious issues with the training department.

It's absolutely possible JetU guys could be teaching in the sims. They were so desperate for instructors, they were offering even FOs a buy out at 100 hours a month at first year CA pay to run the sims. I don't remember the qualifications off hand to teach in the sim, but I'm pretty sure they would meet them. In fact, I remember one of the things I pointed out when they offered the spots was that we're going to have guys that never taught and never wanted to teaching people in the sims simply because they could make more money.

Pinnacle's CFM and FOM are written for the lowest common denominator because it's just easier from a litigation point of view. They look at things not "Does this make sense?" but from a "Are we going to be on the hook if someone augers this one in?" Case in point: Traverse City. The crew followed the CFM to the letter and went off the end of the runway. The FAA said the CA did everything right, and the procedure was at fault. Pinnacle changed the procedure (after a lot of inisiting the CA was just a bad pilot), but they still attempted to fire the guy.

You can't argue the fact that Pinnacle has hired and will continue to hire a lot of inexperienced guys. Those JetU guys COULD have wound up in left seat quite easily. A lot came to Pinnacle specifically for the quick upgrade. I know I flew with several guys when I first upgraded that were constantly talking about how they couldn't wait to be a CA, yet these guys weren't even good FOs yet! There was even a program in place (prior to the upgrade brakes being slammed on) to get them to the left seat even FASTER. Anyone else remember that "Mentor" program? Yeah, that was desgined to get lower time FOs into the left seat by checking boxes on a sheet of paper. If you came in with 1000 hours, you wouldn't even need the program as you would meet CA mins long before that.

CC, I think you see Jet U and jump on the defensive immediately. I DON'T think his post was mostly BS. He made a lot of good points, and from the perspective of seeing these guys from the left seat, I agree with him. Pinnacles SOPs ARE written for low time guys. It may have started with the Gulfstream guys, but it continued with Jet U. Plenty of programs and intent were there for those guys to be in the left seat within a year of being on property. Two at the most. Basically, they wanted it where if you met ATP mins, you could bid CA. The ONLY reasons they didn't upgraded was because of age 65 and the economic slow down. Take those out of the equation, and you couldn't say they weren't upgrading. All of them (yourself included) would have upgraded.



Now, back to the training stuff

Day three of procedures training went ALMOST the same as days 1 and 2. Same stuff on the ground, takeoff. Then we got zapped back to the runway to do a Flaps 2 takeoff. Normal takeoff in the 190 is at Flaps 1. Takeoff again, JFK1 CRI climb to a heading, and then find out our airport is closed and have to divert. Run the QRH for diversion to make sure we've got everything taken care of and get set up for the VOR 4R into JFK. Run another QRH for non-precision approach to get everything set up for a precison-like approach and come back in. Go around, hold and a couple of non-normals in the hold to get used to QRH procedures. Come back in for an ILS 22L, taxi to the gate. Second half was pretty much the same as the first half. Off today and back at it again tomorow.

I have to say I REALLY like the QRH here. One of the biggest things we focus on is threat and error management. The QRH is there for non-normal and emergency situations, but it's also got checklists and flow charts for things you don't do very often that you might be rusty on. Rather than have you digging through an FOM or CFM, it's right there in the QRH is a quick reference format. I'm not sure how many majors do this, but it's a fantastic idea. Pinnacle only really had something like that for CAT II approaches. JetBlue has it for almost everything. Non-precision approaches, diversions, oceanic operations, ferry flights, CAT II/III approaches, and even high mins CA. Intercept procedures are even in there for when you bust the airspace in DC. Basically, if you find yourself scatching your head and wondering "How do we do this again?" there's probably something in the QRH for it. Wanna know about those confusing ice pellet chart holdover times? It's not just a chart, but a flow diagram that leads you to the right thing.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

You'd let a factually incorrect post about airline training (that you went through) go unchecked? This is also the same guy that attempted to threaten my employment with my current airline. There is no such thing as 'network' between him and I.

OOOHHHH.... JC fratricide.

 

[kellwolf]

Got my ass kicked tonight. Procedures #4, but I got a lot of stuff "checked off." Pretty much from gate to takeoff is signed off now. Same with after landing to parking. Did an RNAV arrival and missed around with a lot of the VNAV stuff in the box. Worked with several different ways to transition into a precision-like approach using the VNAV. Things started to go south when I did the go around. Hit the TOGA button, but it didn't take. That's been a problem with this FTD. It's normally not too bad since Pinnacle beat FMA calls into my head. Makes it easy to make sure the AP/ATs are in the right mode since I'm already in the habit. Other habits that are hard to break, setting the ALT when I'm PF, not setting the ALT when I'm PM and not hitting "activate vectors" for an approach. It's not like the final nav set up in the CRJ and will kick out crossing restrictions on fixes of a non-precision approach. Also, ASEL in the FMA is NOT like ALTS CAP. So, I'm having to force myself to wait on ALT to set a next altitude.

The one that had me going simple dog head tilt tonight was the LOC 17L into MCO. Tons of step down fixes, they come up fast and I'm still getting used to the displays. The way I had it set up is to use the vertical profile display and just set the VS mode to keep me on the 3.0 line. Where things got messed up was when I got off the line. The VS wheel in the E190 uses MUCH smaller increments than the CRJ, so I spun the wheel and was only doing 500 FPM. Spun it several times again.....800 FPM. WTF? Spun it again....and realized I'm looking at the INDICATED VS not what I'm setting it for. I set it for 3000 FPM. By the time I had that figured out, we were at the FAF. Had to rush to set the MDA to catch up. By then I was way behind. Basically, I was not happy with how I did tonight. It's cool, though. We're doing more LOC approaches tomorrow and the next day, so hopefully I can redeem myself.

 

[exneophyte]

Got my ass kicked tonight. Procedures #4, but I got a lot of stuff "checked off." Pretty much from gate to takeoff is signed off now. Same with after landing to parking. Did an RNAV arrival and missed around with a lot of the VNAV stuff in the box. Worked with several different ways to transition into a precision-like approach using the VNAV. Things started to go south when I did the go around. Hit the TOGA button, but it didn't take. That's been a problem with this FTD. It's normally not too bad since Pinnacle beat FMA calls into my head. Makes it easy to make sure the AP/ATs are in the right mode since I'm already in the habit. Other habits that are hard to break, setting the ALT when I'm PF, not setting the ALT when I'm PM and not hitting "activate vectors" for an approach. It's not like the final nav set up in the CRJ and will kick out crossing restrictions on fixes of a non-precision approach. Also, ASEL in the FMA is NOT like ALTS CAP. So, I'm having to force myself to wait on ALT to set a next altitude.

The one that had me going simple dog head tilt tonight was the LOC 17L into MCO. Tons of step down fixes, they come up fast and I'm still getting used to the displays. The way I had it set up is to use the vertical profile display and just set the VS mode to keep me on the 3.0 line. Where things got messed up was when I got off the line. The VS wheel in the E190 uses MUCH smaller increments than the CRJ, so I spun the wheel and was only doing 500 FPM. Spun it several times again.....800 FPM. WTF? Spun it again....and realized I'm looking at the INDICATED VS not what I'm setting it for. I set it for 3000 FPM. By the time I had that figured out, we were at the FAF. Had to rush to set the MDA to catch up. By then I was way behind. Basically, I was not happy with how I did tonight. It's cool, though. We're doing more LOC approaches tomorrow and the next day, so hopefully I can redeem myself.

Haven't been through it, but it sounds like a lot to focus on and even better ... you know what you did wrong. Tomorrow, keep in mind what you learned you were deficient in, but don't forget the stuff you did well. Your postings on the process to be expected are amazing. Thank you for that. Good luck tomorrow.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

kell, I don't want to take away from your thread. I'll just conclude that previous topic by saying the OP wrote specifically that "You know why it was that way at Pinnacle? It's cause the training dept got populated by folks from Jet University." And that is false. The training department did not get populated by Jet U folks. Of the 70 or so that actually got hired from Jet U, only 2 ended up in the training department, and that was in the 2010 desperation phase. A majority of the training department is run by senior lifers, long term professional sim instructors, and the northern mississippi flying club. You are correct Pinnacle trains with the thought that low timers are coming in through the doors. Maybe it's the Gulfstream crowd too. But the FACT still remains that Jet U pilots had minimal to ZERO impact on changing anything in the training department. The training department changes were caused by senior MEM folks. Now if they changed the training department because they couldn't get qualified pilots through the door, so be it. But the training department was NOT populated by Jet U folks. And almost all regionals were hiring low timers in 2007 and training to the lowest denominator, except Eagle. The blame here isn't on Jet U pilots, but on the regional industry in general for the training standards and procedures set up.