KCM

@BobDDuck

How would it be much more beneficial to us all if we were all in the same union? No flaming, honest question. I don't know if I'm just naive or if I'm failing to make the connection in your statement.

How would Delta and United pilots benefit from the SWA pilots joining ALPA and how would the SWA pilots benefit from joining ALPA? Same goes for the AA pilots leaving APA and joining ALPA. I can see why ALPA would benefit (more funds), but how would the AA pilots benefit and how would the other legacy carrier pilot groups benefit?
 
Because it's better to speak with a voice of 60,000 or 70,000 pilots rather than 54,000. It gives one more clout when you speak on an issue with more numbers. Furthermore it creates a more financially secure union which allows for a lot of growth and expansion of what that 'voice' of the Union is talking about.
 
Seggy said:
Because it's better to speak with a voice of 60,000 or 70,000 pilots rather than 54,000. It gives one more clout when you speak on an issue with more numbers. Furthermore it creates a more financially secure union which allows for a lot of growth and expansion of what that 'voice' of the Union is talking about.
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Hey, Swapa led on the age 65 thing, ALPA got the KCM, teamsters got - i don't know- bigger trashbags in the cockpit. You're all pulling together, just not in the exact same direction.
 
I've heard from a great source the cargo cutout in FAR117 would NOT have been included but the IPA really screwed up at the last minute before the rule was put out.
 
Seggy said:
I've heard from a great source the cargo cutout in FAR117 would NOT have been included but the IPA really screwed up at the last minute before the rule was put out.
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And ALPA's never screwed up?

It's like politics, republican's and democrats are never going to come together in one party. You've got to find a way to work together and speak with one voice on things that you agree on. OR, you know, change the character and personality of every pilot on Earth, or at least the US, into one of collectivism.
 
Seggy said:
Because it's better to speak with a voice of 60,000 or 70,000 pilots rather than 54,000. It gives one more clout when you speak on an issue with more numbers. Furthermore it creates a more financially secure union which allows for a lot of growth and expansion of what that 'voice' of the Union is talking about.
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This doesn't work because one pilot groups best interests don't always align with the others. In that situation either one gets hosed or they both get poor representation
 
Ajax said:
This doesn't work because one pilot groups best interests don't always align with the others. In that situation either one gets hosed or they both get poor representation
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So what's the solution? Don't we all have the same interests?
 
You know what's really frustrating to me? The fact that I was a pilot at an ALPA airline that was shutdown. ALPA organized a job fair for us and that led to my job at my current company, of which is org'd under IBT. Now I get to see people like Mark draw a line in the sand to no one specifically, but a group of people, that is not represented by ALPA. We were not born with ideas. We developed ideas through experience. Food for thought...
 
Seggy said:
Because it's better to speak with a voice of 60,000 or 70,000 pilots rather than 54,000. It gives one more clout when you speak on an issue with more numbers. Furthermore it creates a more financially secure union which allows for a lot of growth and expansion of what that 'voice' of the Union is talking about.
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No doubt about it, but a single union is probably not going to happen anytime soon. Meanwhile, we do the best with what we've got, and to be clear, the Teamsters heavily lobbied against the cargo cutout, as well.

I'll also just add that being a Teamster pilot is a good thing when the freight is trucked to the jet by Teamster drivers. IBT is much, much bigger than just Local 1224 or 357.
 
dasleben said:
No doubt about it, but a single union is probably not going to happen anytime soon.
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Thank goodness. Don't think I can handle any more of ALPA "defending" my career.

- Gave up scope? Lengthened my furlough

- Forced recalled furloughees to low-paid Metrojet while newhires went to higher paid Group 2 airplanes? Nice job ALPA.. [emoji12]

- Signed Jets4jobs? Screwed other ALPA members and lengthened my furlough

- Signed age 65? Lengthened my furlough

- Voted to cancel furloughee healthcare? WTF?

- Failed to enforce contractual recall language resulting in hundreds being forced off the list early? Well, at least I wasn't furloughed anymore I guess...

I've flown for carriers represented by ALPA, NPA, Teamsters etc.

All of them are 1000% better than the 9 years I spent nonunion having work rules modified or ignored weekly.

Truth is all politics are local, even Union politics. If you have weak and/or greedy union leadership locally it doesn't matter which logo is on their lapel. You will not be well represented.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Thank goodness. Don't think I can handle any more of ALPA "defending" my career.

- Gave up scope? Lengthened my furlough

- Forced recalled furloughees to low-paid Metrojet while newhires went to higher paid Group 2 airplanes? Nice job ALPA.. [emoji12]

- Signed Jets4jobs? Screwed other ALPA members and lengthened my furlough

- Signed age 65? Lengthened my furlough

- Voted to cancel furloughee healthcare? WTF?

- Failed to enforce contractual recall language resulting in hundreds being forced off the list early? Well, at least I wasn't furloughed anymore I guess...

I've flown for carriers represented by ALPA, NPA, Teamsters etc.

All of them are 1000% better than the 9 years I spent nonunion having work rules modified or ignored weekly.

Truth is all politics are local, even Union politics. If you have weak and/or greedy union leadership locally it doesn't matter which logo is on their lapel. You will not be well represented.
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Yup, my experience with ALPA consisted of watching as Prater and his cronies stood behind the age 65 rule while thousands of us industry-wide were on furlough. Came right before the concessions.

I hope people see why I'm not in any rush to run back to ALPA.
 
I'm more about us finding common ground then seeing the different labels. I think there is good in the leadership talking to each other, but it gets watered down when the slights become the norm. I mean, if you really wanna go "there" and say "we negotiated it. It's ours," then you're really talking about the actual people that did the work. I don't think paying dues to the specific label is enough to say you're part of that. You just happen to spend your money on it. You didn't actually do the work. I can't completely control all this. Most of this is decided FOR me and it goes the same for a majority of the industry. The best I have is a vote. I just think it's really unfortunate that some people want special labels and treatment. It's not like we all sat in a room and decided it would be this way. It became this way over time.
 
dasleben said:
Yup, my experience with ALPA consisted of watching as Prater and his cronies stood behind the age 65 rule while thousands of us industry-wide were on furlough. Came right before the concessions.

I hope people see why I'm not in any rush to run back to ALPA.
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The only good thing that happened circa 2006 was the elimination of the domestic crew meals that gave the Old Man food poisoning half the time. :rolleyes:
 
falconvalley said:
Now I get to see people like Mark draw a line in the sand to no one specifically, but a group of people, that is not represented by ALPA. We were not born with ideas. We developed ideas through experience. Food for thought...
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No, drawing a line is saying that if you are represented by the IBT you can't go through KCM as you didn't pay the developmental cost to it.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Thank goodness. Don't think I can handle any more of ALPA "defending" my career.

- Gave up scope? Lengthened my furlough

- Forced recalled furloughees to low-paid Metrojet while newhires went to higher paid Group 2 airplanes? Nice job ALPA.. [emoji12]

- Signed Jets4jobs? Screwed other ALPA members and lengthened my furlough

- Signed age 65? Lengthened my furlough

- Voted to cancel furloughee healthcare? WTF?

- Failed to enforce contractual recall language resulting in hundreds being forced off the list early? Well, at least I wasn't furloughed anymore I guess...
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Is this a problem with ALPA or a problem with your leadership/pilot group you had? Not all airlines canceled their furloughee healthcare. As a matter of fact ALPA negotiated for most on furlough to keep their healthcare.



Truth is all politics are local, even Union politics. If you have weak and/or greedy union leadership locally it doesn't matter which logo is on their lapel. You will not be well represented.
Click to expand...

Once again, I would be looking at your local leadership at Airways to assign blame.
 
dasleben said:
Yup, my experience with ALPA consisted of watching as Prater and his cronies stood behind the age 65 rule while thousands of us industry-wide were on furlough. Came right before the concessions.

I hope people see why I'm not in any rush to run back to ALPA.
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Folks do realize that there was little ALPA could have done to stop the Age 60 rule from changing, right?
 
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ZapBrannigan said:
Thank goodness. Don't think I can handle any more of ALPA "defending" my career.

- Gave up scope? Lengthened my furlough

- Forced recalled furloughees to low-paid Metrojet while newhires went to higher paid Group 2 airplanes? Nice job ALPA..
emoji12.png


- Signed Jets4jobs? Screwed other ALPA members and lengthened my furlough

- Signed age 65? Lengthened my furlough

- Voted to cancel furloughee healthcare? WTF?

- Failed to enforce contractual recall language resulting in hundreds being forced off the list early? Well, at least I wasn't furloughed anymore I guess...

I've flown for carriers represented by ALPA, NPA, Teamsters etc.

All of them are 1000% better than the 9 years I spent nonunion having work rules modified or ignored weekly.

Truth is all politics are local, even Union politics. If you have weak and/or greedy union leadership locally it doesn't matter which logo is on their lapel. You will not be well represented.
Click to expand...

Was there membership ratification or did the overlords from Herndon come down and say, "HERE"?

People color outside the lines all the time, but I'm not sure if Crayola is always to blame. Convenient and easy, yes, but truly? Debatable.
 
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