Jet Blue blames WX, pilot rest rules for system meltdown

What is so amazingly awesome - even ASA's policy - can be intimating.

Boom.

And of course, the same logic is used. I've heard it many times from CPs that they are after the "abusers."
 
Seggy said:
Once again, you shouldn't make policy for a handful of guys.
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The point was you said it was "rare," which it may have been at Colgan or at United. It wasn't on the Pinnacle side of things (we still had a sick policy even when you guys got rid of yours), and it's not rare at jetBlue. That may contradict your world view, but that's how it is.

I might agree that you shouldn't make a policy for a handful of guys. Fact remains, jetBlue was the only company i've ever worked for in my LIFE that didn't have a sick policy when I got hired. Pinnacle had one (and it changed multiple times for the worse while I was there). SWA had one on the ramp. XJT had one for gate/ticket counter agents. The theme parks had 'em, too. It's a fact of life that people get sick, however, it's also a fact of life that people take advantage of that as well. In our line of work, should you be fired for calling in sick? No, since the law says we can't fly sick. However, I do think there needs to be some guidelines in place to curb the abuse of the system.
 
Agreed Kellwolf.

You must have a policy to define what "abuse" is. If there is no guideline, how can you punish anyone? If there's no line, even 3 stdev above the mean isn't out of bounds...because there are no boundaries!

Seggy, I think the problem here is:

1. You've never worked somewhere with literally NO policy, so you don't understand the problem.

2. You don't understand that lots of people call in sick to get time off if coverage isn't good. It isn't "rare."


For sure our sick policy needs an overhaul, but I'm glad it's there. Screwing your buddy by calling in sick for your trip just to get time off is BS.



CP-
"You called in sick 50 times this year, and we think you weren't sick that often. You're suspended due to abusing the system."

Pilot-
"There's no attendance policy, and no guideline to tell me what the expectations are. How can you call this abuse with no line drawn? I'll call my lawyer."
 
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PhilosopherPilot said:
Agreed Kellwolf.

You must have a policy to define what "abuse" is. If there is no guideline, how can you punish anyone? If there's no line, even 3 stdev above the mean isn't out of bounds...because there are no boundaries!

Seggy, I think the problem here is:

1. You've never worked somewhere with literally NO policy, so you don't understand the problem.

2. You don't understand that lots of people call in sick to get time off if coverage isn't good. It isn't "rare."


For sure our sick policy needs an overhaul, but I'm glad it's there. Screwing your buddy by calling in sick for your trip just to get time off is BS.



CP-
"You called in sick 50 times this year, and we think you weren't sick that often. You're suspended due to abusing the system."

Pilot-
"There's no attendance policy, and no guideline to tell me what the expectations are. How can you call this abuse with no line drawn? I'll call my lawyer."
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In your example, has that pilot exhausted his/her sick bank?

If "no", that shouldn't constitute abuse, just because they call in sick 50 times at 1 hour of sick bank vs a person who calls in twice at 25 hours of sick bank usage.
 
A sick policy should simply be if you're sick, you're sick. Take all the time you need to recover. If you miss more than x consecutive days, get a doctor's note that says you're fit to return to duty (no mention of diagnosis, just that you're better).

You're welcome.
 
averettpilot said:
A sick policy should simply be if you're sick, you're sick. Take all the time you need to recover. If you miss more than x consecutive days, get a doctor's note that says you're fit to return to duty (no mention of diagnosis, just that you're better). You're welcome.
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Pilots are evil - and not to be trusted, EVAR.

Unless of course they are operating a couple million dollar piece of machinery. Then that's cool.
 
I think you're being sarcastic, but I'm not sure cause I don't know you and there's no sarcasm tag. So I'll just say that if pilots are evil it's because they've allowed themselves to made or become evil. We need to police ourselves on the whole trust thing. If I was management and had been screwed over by pilots sicking out when not really sick, I'd come up with a policy that forbids getting sick. As pilots, we can be the first line of defense in maintaining integrity. If you see someone abusing the system, call 'em out and let them know why that's not cool.

Bottom line, all the problems that arise from sick policies stem from a lack of trust.
 
On the other side of the argument, if I have x amount of sick time, I should be able to use x amount of sick time without so much as a peep out of "management." Otherwise, why do you actually have a bank of it in the first place?
 
Rocketman99 said:
On the other side of the argument, if I have x amount of sick time, I should be able to use x amount of sick time without so much as a peep out of "management." Otherwise, why do you actually have a bank of it in the first place?
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Sure. As long as you're sick, you should be able to call in sick as often as you like (sick time or no).

The problem is that many call in sick when they aren't sick to get time off that they can't get through "legal" ways due to staffing. I agree with the guy who said we should be policing this ourselves. Calling in sick to get a holiday off, or a weekend off, or whatever, that's doing nothing but screwing your fellow pilot.

We have a PTO system. It's fairly easy to drop trips as it is, within the system. Calling in sick (when not sick) is why mgmt feels like they need attendance policies. We are to blame.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Sure. As long as you're sick, you should be able to call in sick as often as you like (sick time or no).

The problem is that many call in sick when they aren't sick to get time off that they can't get through "legal" ways due to staffing. I agree with the guy who said we should be policing this ourselves. Calling in sick to get a holiday off, or a weekend off, or whatever, that's doing nothing but screwing your fellow pilot.

We have a PTO system. It's fairly easy to drop trips as it is, within the system. Calling in sick (when not sick) is why mgmt feels like they need attendance policies. We are to blame.
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Sounds like the company has a problem. Staffing. Not my problem. If they don't have reserves to cover the amount of sick time they give, that's their problem.
 
cencal83406 said:
Sounds like the company has a problem. Staffing. Not my problem. If they don't have reserves to cover the amount of sick time they give, that's their problem.
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So it's okay to call in sick when you aren't sick? Sounds unethical to me... And I wouldn't want you to be one of my fellow pilots. Too junior to hold Christmas off? Nope, you'll F your buddy and make him come in, all because you don't like what your seniority can hold. Nice attitude. No airline can staff for people being unethical.

We need to police ourselves if we don't want to be policed by management.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
So it's okay to call in sick when you aren't sick? Sounds unethical to me... And I wouldn't want you to be one of my fellow pilots. Too junior to hold Christmas off? Nope, you'll F your buddy and make him come in, all because you don't like what your seniority can hold. Nice attitude. No airline can staff for people being unethical.

We need to police ourselves if we don't want to be policed by management.
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I don't think people should call in if they're not sick, but what you're saying just doesn't make sense; the guy with the reserve day over Christmas is already working. They may live in base and be sitting at home, waiting for a call, but rest assured they're working.

Now if your company is extending days off, that's another thing. Or like declaring SWAP on a Sunday that goes through to Tuesday, which just happened...
 
jtrain609 said:
I don't think people should call in if they're not sick, but what you're saying just doesn't make sense; the guy with the reserve day over Christmas is already working. They may live in base and be sitting at home, waiting for a call, but rest assured they're working.

Now if your company is extending days off, that's another thing. Or like declaring SWAP on a Sunday that goes through to Tuesday, which just happened...
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If enough people call in, they will extend people, sure. Or maybe a guy bid on a trip that ends early on Christmas Day, and he gets tagged with a RT and gets home hours later. And a reserve who could've stayed at home with his family now has to go in because that guy is choosing to be unethical? That's not right.

The bottom line is that we have to be professionals.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
So it's okay to call in sick when you aren't sick? Sounds unethical to me... And I wouldn't want you to be one of my fellow pilots. Too junior to hold Christmas off? Nope, you'll F your buddy and make him come in, all because you don't like what your seniority can hold. Nice attitude. No airline can staff for people being unethical.

We need to police ourselves if we don't want to be policed by management.
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Where did I state I would call in sick if I wasn't?

But, if I am given sick time, I should be able to use it as I need up to the amount issued.

Same with PTO... If you aren't staffed well enough to cover PTO on ANY day (including Christmas), it's a staffing issue.

Perhaps the company should incentivize working holidays like the rest of the world... You think they would have less people asking for PTO or calling in sick? I do.

That's an example of a non-punitive policy that could go a long way to establishing a positive relationship with management.
 
Is there such a thing as holiday pay for working on the holiday with the airlines?

I can say having witnessed my wife's nursing career that offering 2X or even 3X pay on the holiday turns that holiday shift into a coveted one instead of a dreaded one with the hospital ending up with more volunteers than needed. However, in a union environment all of this has to be negotiated at contract time.
 
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