Jet Blue blames WX, pilot rest rules for system meltdown

Does JBU have the manpower and resources to waste time questioning EVERY SINGLE instance of a pilot calling our sick? Really? Sick leave is a benefit provided for to the pilots correct?

Penalized for using a system benefit to allow you to recuperate and be well for your next assignment?

All the way the company wasn't prepared for a severe winter storm/Part 117?

Trust me, I'm not singling our JBU...but I have a hard time believing that a company is going to waste resources following up on EVERY SINGLE sick call just to satisfy the "reliability policy."

Just doesn't make sense. Track the trends, much like ASA does, track the trends and find those who are abusing the system. But I'll be damned if I have to tell the CPO why I am calling out sick every single time I have a sinus infection.

Tell me this reliability policy isn't this draconian. JetBlue was looking promising.
 
You guys just don't get what I'm saying, and that mostly because either 1. You don't agree and read what you want, and/or 2. I don't have the patience to write a novel on here.

Of course they shouldn't question each call, but you should be accountable for your attendance, and if it seems out of whack, you should answer questions about it. (That led to the tangent about not answering for anything, ever.)

The sick policy was implemented poorly, and needs an overhaul for sure. I'm basically just disagreeing with Seggy that ANY sick policy no matter how designed is not safe. That shows a general lack of understanding about how risk management works at an airline. Plus, absolute statements just don't have a place in any real-world application.

Seggy, accept the gray in life. Nothing is black/white.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
You guys just don't get what I'm saying, and that mostly because either 1. You don't agree and read what you want, and/or 2. I don't have the patience to write a novel on here.

Of course they shouldn't question each call, but you should be accountable for your attendance, and if it seems out of whack, you should answer questions about it. (That led to the tangent about not answering for anything, ever.)

The sick policy was implemented poorly, and needs an overhaul for sure. I'm basically just disagreeing with Seggy that ANY sick policy no matter how designed is not safe. That shows a general lack of understanding about how risk management works at an airline. Plus, absolute statements just don't have a place in any real-world application.

Seggy, accept the gray in life. Nothing is black/white.
Click to expand...

One day, I'll tell you what happened to me with the sick call policy that we had.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
You guys just don't get what I'm saying, and that mostly because either 1. You don't agree and read what you want, and/or 2. I don't have the patience to write a novel on here. Of course they shouldn't question each call, but you should be accountable for your attendance, and if it seems out of whack, you should answer questions about it. (That led to the tangent about not answering for anything, ever.) The sick policy was implemented poorly, and needs an overhaul for sure. I'm basically just disagreeing with Seggy that ANY sick policy no matter how designed is not safe. That shows a general lack of understanding about how risk management works at an airline. Plus, absolute statements just don't have a place in any real-world application. Seggy, accept the gray in life. Nothing is black/white.
Click to expand...

Well, I do not have hair on my back and am
most certainly not 6'6" and 200+Lbs, so I am the furthest thing from Seggy.

I know you've said it a few times that the policy was rolled out in a horrible way, but in the end the policy is in place, correct?

Clearly it has generated a great deal of concern and outrage, not only from JBU pilots but also those who may look to JBU as a place of future employment.

What is being done to correct the policy? What is being done to gain the employee group's buy-in to supporting the policy? Believe it or not, on an organizational level, employees will agree with most policies if they are developed and implemented properly. Largely, this means using the employee group's inputs to develop and implement the policy while the policy is not used solely as a tool for discipline.

Certainly not asking for a novel, but hopefully you get what I am trying to say. Additionally, management's opinion that Pilots don't want to answer for anything - ever - needs to go away. This ridiculous us vs them mentality that exists does nothing to build organizational cohesion.
 
surreal1221 said:
Well, I do not have hair on my back and am
most certainly not 6'6" and 200+Lbs, so I am the furthest thing from Seggy.

I know you've said it a few times that the policy was rolled out in a horrible way, but in the end the policy is in place, correct?

Clearly it has generated a great deal of concern and outrage, not only from JBU pilots but also those who may look to JBU as a place of future employment.

What is being done to correct the policy? What is being done to gain the employee group's buy-in to supporting the policy? Believe it or not, on an organizational level, employees will agree with most policies if they are developed and implemented properly. Largely, this means using the employee group's inputs to develop and implement the policy while the policy is not used solely as a tool for discipline.

Certainly not asking for a novel, but hopefully you get what I am trying to say. Additionally, management's opinion that Pilots don't want to answer for anything - ever - needs to go away. This ridiculous us vs them mentality that exists does nothing to build organizational cohesion.
Click to expand...
I'll take the heat for the last paragraph. What I wrote was meant as a point not a literal application. BUT being cornered over obvious correct decisions or sick/fatigue calls does nothing to improve safety.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Agreed 100%, but what's wrong with having to explain what happened? Not to a scheduler, since they aren't your supervisor, but to the CPO or to the Safety dept.?
Click to expand...

What's wrong with it? It's no ones business why I ca in sick if I have a bank of sick time.

I find it appalling that some employers "prohibit" sick time use for family members. My employer is one of them.

If I say I'm stressed at home, is the company going to report to the FAA that I was mentally unfit to fly, causing me to lose my medical to a battery of tests?

What about HIPAA? Employers are specifically barred from asking about sickness. Why should the airlines get a pass around a federal law?

We won't see eye to eye, but the bottom line is if I EARN sick time (known in other industries as flex days or PTO), I should have reasonable expectation of tapping into that regardless of the why. The easiest policy is, when you run out of sick time, you just don't get paid when you call in sick.
 
surreal1221 said:
Well, I do not have hair on my back and am
most certainly not 6'6" and 200+Lbs, so I am the furthest thing from Seggy.

I know you've said it a few times that the policy was rolled out in a horrible way, but in the end the policy is in place, correct?

Clearly it has generated a great deal of concern and outrage, not only from JBU pilots but also those who may look to JBU as a place of future employment.

What is being done to correct the policy? What is being done to gain the employee group's buy-in to supporting the policy? Believe it or not, on an organizational level, employees will agree with most policies if they are developed and implemented properly. Largely, this means using the employee group's inputs to develop and implement the policy while the policy is not used solely as a tool for discipline.

Certainly not asking for a novel, but hopefully you get what I am trying to say. Additionally, management's opinion that Pilots don't want to answer for anything - ever - needs to go away. This ridiculous us vs them mentality that exists does nothing to build organizational cohesion.
Click to expand...

No, the policy, IMHO, needs an overhaul. Unfortunately we don't have a real means of feedback and input due to our lack of CBA.

I'm put drankin right now, but I'll reply to you in a PM in a bit.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
If someone asks you "why were you unfit?" They aren't asking you to defend it. They are just asking why. What was the reason? You don't work for yourself. You answer to the authorities above you because you don't own the company. Just like you fly the plane the way they tell you to because they pay your salary.
Click to expand...

There are HIPAA laws that prevent companies from asking that. Why don't you understand that? @HRDiva, and I wrong here?
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Agreed 100%, but what's wrong with having to explain what happened? Not to a scheduler, since they aren't your supervisor, but to the CPO or to the Safety dept.?
Click to expand...

Well, as you should know, well run safety programs are voluntary. Are you saying that pilots would be forced to talk to the safety department if they are sick? That undermines their role. You should know better.

Sooooo, once again, what happens if the pilot simply tells the safety folks to 'pound sand'? Once again, the pilot can do so per HIPAA law.
 
Seggy said:
Well, as you should know, well run safety programs are voluntary. Are you saying that pilots would be forced to talk to the safety department if they are sick? That undermines their role. You should know better.

Sooooo, once again, what happens if the pilot simply tells the safety folks to 'pound sand'? Once again, the pilot can do so per HIPAA law.
Click to expand...

Many fatigue programs "require" reports if they want the protections of the program. Sick could work in a similar manner.

I'm not trying to build a program here. I'm just saying it is possible to build a policy that is both safe, and discourages abuse.

Crap, we flew a rocket to the moon and back repeatedly, and you think it's impossible to build a reliable and safe attendance policy ???
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Many fatigue programs "require" reports if they want the protections of the program. Sick could work in a similar manner.
Click to expand...

Once again, are you saying that the program needs to ignore federal HIPAA laws? Answer that question please.

Also, say someone wants to live in your fantasy world, gets sick, fills out the report and says they got sick because their kid got sick in day care. What is the company going to do? Tell the pilot to get a vasectomy to not have any more kids? Give his kid up for adoption? Stay in a different house than his kid when the pilot is off to not get sick? The company can't do crap to fix anything if the pilot is sick.

However, if someone gets fatigued, the company can easily modify pairings, hotels, or operations. With a valid fatigue report, the responsibility is on the company to fix it, which they usually can.

Huge difference.

I'm not trying to build a program here. I'm just saying it is possible to build a policy that is both safe, and discourages abuse.
Click to expand...

Once again, the handful of folks that do abuse sick leave is so small, the percentage is very irrelevant if the company can properly staff and run the operation.

Crap, we flew a rocket to the moon and back repeatedly, and you think it's impossible to build a reliable and safe attendance policy ???
Click to expand...

There is no need to 'build' a reliable and safe attendance policy. By doing so you are saying you can't trust your employees and you can't hire the right people. Is that good management? Nope.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Many fatigue programs "require" reports if they want the protections of the program. Sick could work in a similar manner.

I'm not trying to build a program here. I'm just saying it is possible to build a policy that is both safe, and discourages abuse.

Crap, we flew a rocket to the moon and back repeatedly, and you think it's impossible to build a reliable and safe attendance policy ???
Click to expand...

Not really. Established 'policy' becomes a means to reward people acting outside the interest of safety, ie, 'cost'. If the airline management types acted in a manner that allowed pilots to be sick without invasive questions or economic disincentives that'd be different. But they don't.
 
We just aren't going to agree. There suuuure are a lot if attendance policies. If they are unsafe, why isn't the FAA revoking certificates?

Agree to disagree. Done.
 
You know that 'Fitness For Duty' Requirement under Part 117?

Part of the reason it is there is because of these sick policies. If a company does go after someone for calling in sick, it will just be easier for the pilot to defend themselves for calling in sick.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
We just aren't going to agree. There suuuure are a lot if attendance policies. If they are unsafe, why isn't the FAA revoking certificates?

Agree to disagree. Done.
Click to expand...
Funny you say that! We, CJC, were on the verge once maybe twice because of the sick policy. Sick is not fatigue. I'm sure if you dug and asked the right questions to the higher ups it's less than 1% of the pilot group abusing the sick policy. Secondly, why do you care so much about other people and their sick calls. JB is a large company and one sick call is not going to throw the operation into a tail spin. Also when @Seggy and I along with others on this board were reviewing the sick "issue" at CJC it was amazing how few times people called in sick while on a trip. Most called in sick well before report time which gave the company ample time to recrew the flight.
 
amorris311 said:
Funny you say that! We, CJC, were on the verge once maybe twice because of the sick policy. Sick is not fatigue. I'm sure if you dug and asked the right questions to the higher ups it's less than 1% of the pilot group abusing the sick policy. Secondly, why do you care so much about other people and their sick calls. JB is a large company and one sick call is not going to throw the operation into a tail spin. Also when @Seggy and I along with others on this board were reviewing the sick "issue" at CJC it was amazing how few times people called in sick while on a trip. Most called in sick well before report time which gave the company ample time to recrew the flight.
Click to expand...

The only thing I took issue with is the blanket "all sick policies are unsafe" statement. I think that's false on its face, mostly because it's an absolute. Few things in life are absolute.

I'm not in favor of our sick policy, but I understand the business need for one. You can't fire someone for abuse if there isn't a line that was crossed.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Like I said. Agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
You never addressed my post about non-airline sick time:

It's earned, use as much as you want

Generally referred to as flex "days" or PTO.

How can you "agree to disagree" about HIPAA violations? That's cut and dry.

Just admit you are wrong. If ALPA ever comes on property, you are going to be as far from a safety position as they can manage.
 
We are agreeing to disagree about the blanket statement. That's what I take exception to. The resultant discussion is irrelevant, frankly.

I don't know enough about the medical privacy laws to answer today, so I'll have to ask my wife and get back to you on that one, but again, it's irrelevant to my point.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top