Is Kit Darby's Pilot Shortage Really Here?

[Trip7]

Yeah, I heard about Circuit City thing on NBC nightly news last night. Which reminds me...to not shop Circuit City any longer.

As for the executive, yes blame them. Don't pity them. As they're cutting worker jobs or asking them to do more with less while padding both their pockets and the shareholders. The employees get nothing for all their hard work.

Yeah I agree, this whole treating your employees like dogs thing works only in a few special cases like Walmart. For most companies I believe it will take them down. I think Circuit City is going to pay dearly for their decision. I laughed when they earlier changed the pay structure from commission-based to to hourly, then watched sales go down dramatically. We are pilots, we are professional, educated, and intelligent. You can not try to treat us like Walmart employees. This is why companies like XJET, and SKYWEST will prosper, and companies like Mesa will be forced to change, or close doors.

 

[bunghole]

Yeah I agree, this whole treating your employees like dogs thing works only in a few special cases like Walmart. For most companies I believe it will take them down. I think Circuit City is going to pay dearly for their decision. I laughed when they earlier changed the pay structure from commission-based to to hourly, then watched sales go down dramatically. We are pilots, we are professional, educated, and intelligent. You can not try to treat us like Walmart employees. This is why companies like XJET, and SKYWEST will prosper, and companies like Mesa will be forced to change, or cl se doors.

Wow....I hope you didnt offend any Walmart employees on the forum!

 

[Trip7]

We should start a list of all the dates where contract negotiation for each airline begins to keep track of things. This is what im looking for industry wide

Major Airlines:
UPS's current contract should not be an industry leading contract, it should be the industry average. All pilot negotiator should strive to equal or better this contract

Regional Airlines:
Horizon Air's current contract should be the industry average for regionals. Horizon's payscales show respect for the pilot as a professional. All regionals should equal or better this contract. I hope Pinnacle makes a step in this direction.

 

[bunghole]

We should start a list of all the dates where contract negotiation for each airline begins to keep track of things. This is what im looking for industry wide

Major Airlines:
UPS's current contract should not be an industry leading contract, it should be the industry average. All pilot negotiator should strive to equal or better this contract

Regional Airlines:
Horizon Air's current contract should be the industry average for regionals. Horizon's payscales show respect for the pilot as a professional. All regionals should equal or better this contract. I hope Pinnacle makes a step in this direction.

Dont forget Walmart! geeez

 

[kellwolf]

Major Airlines:
UPS's current contract should not be an industry leading contract, it should be the industry average. All pilot negotiator should strive to equal or better this contract

I think UPS was an industry leading contract for about a week or so. Then FedEx topped them.

 

[fly8slep]

What is the interest for regionals to have unhappy employees? What is the difference between Skywest and Mesa in that one can afford to be the best while the other, well you know.. If Skywest can be a profitable and successful operation all while having a great contract, what possible argument can lower tier regionals make?? How is it that a Skywest pilot can make 20K per year more than a Mesa pilot flying the same equipment at the same seniroty level? It's just so frustrating to see the big divide in working conditions at the airlines, salaries are pretty much all in the same level, why can't contracts be that way also?

 

[kellwolf]

What it boils down to is "you get what you can negotiate." Mesa's contract is so bad because management had an alter ego carrier running that they were theatening of moving all the flying to. If the Mesa guys didn't cave on a lot of stuff, they were looking at furloughs and watching all the flying they used to do being shipped to a non-union carrier. It was a low, underhanded move by management to get labor costs down, and it worked. Why? They banked on pilots being willing to stab each other in the back for growth and upgrades, which is true. Pinnacle has tried it so often, that it's getting old. The problem is, Pinnacle has made so many empty threats, no one buys it anymore. Those same empty threats have served to unify the pilot group more than it already was. Mesa management, at the time of their last contract, drove a wedge right down the middle of the pilot group by saying "Look, we've already got guys willing to fly for $X if they can upgrade fast. We'll put it all under one contract if you'll fly for $X-x, otherwise, they're gonna get the flying and there's nothing you can do about it." TSA and GoJets are looking at more or less the same deal. The potential is there for Pinnacle and Colgan to be in the same boat.

 

[fly8slep]

Well hopefully it's going to be better but I'm really curious to see what's going to happen with Mesa. Is management in the position to strong-arm the pilots? I hear if that happens mag pilots will just quit.

 

[SeanD]

Well hopefully it's going to be better but I'm really curious to see what's going to happen with Mesa. Is management in the position to strong-arm the pilots? I hear if that happens mag pilots will just quit.

I dont think they need to strong arm the pilots. There is always someone out there who will take your job for less. Next up Mesa will outsource pilots from South America and Pakistan.

 

[Trip7]

I dont think they need to strong arm the pilots. There is always someone out there who will take your job for less. Next up Mesa will outsource pilots from South America and Pakistan.

hehe, what pilots? Those guys are looking here for pilots, and PAYING MORE!

 

[Trip7]

Hey kells! Im hearing FOs at Pinnacle are going to get a substantial raise. I hear the pilots are asking for $35 2nd year pay. They should ask for $40

 

[Trip7]

Well hopefully it's going to be better but I'm really curious to see what's going to happen with Mesa. Is management in the position to strong-arm the pilots? I hear if that happens mag pilots will just quit.

MESA is going to have to change the contract within THIS YEAR or they will have a pilot shortage like nobody's business. I talked to one of my Mesa buddies about this. They have too, no other choice.

 

[kellwolf]

Hey kells! Im hearing FOs at Pinnacle are going to get a substantial raise. I hear the pilots are asking for $35 2nd year pay. They should ask for $40

Well, there's no where to go but up. We're already one of the lowest starting FO pays in the industry, and I think we are THE lowest in 2nd year pay.

 

[bunghole]

This is one of the canards I've heard often over the years. If you don't like the way business works as iftapplies to labor costs, just roll it all up into, "ah they're all crooks and cook the books, they always make money but just pretend like they don't so costs don't matter........"

While there are companies that do this, they are usually headed for the same fate as Enron. And almost all of the complicated accounting has to do with the tax code. I am definitely in favor of eliminating corporate taxes. Among the benefits for labor would be less money leaving the company and much more transparent book-keeping.

But in the case I mentioned the books were opened up to the union financial analysts, which were paid well to analyze them. As far as I heard the union was satisfied with the data they got access to.

"Bottom line" in any business world, ethical or not, you have to have more coming in than going out or eventually you will fail, cooked books or not. And BTW show me a "cooked books" scandal involving the major airlines, or 98% of American companies for that matter.

Rose colored glasses my fine feathered friend.

FYI...Enron scandal had nothing to do with tax code. Its called 'institutionalized, systematic, and creatively planned accounting fraud.' AKA 'cooked book' Just ask Arthur Anderson!

If American business could they would stop using 'glorified bus drivers' here in that states and hire Chinese with a top pay of a few yen and a plate of moo goo guy pan. Guess what? They havent figured out how to do this yet but perhaps Walmart will.

There is no need to provide you evidence of airline accounting scandal unless you want to re-educate yourself about Eastern Airlines and the wonderful management of Frank Lorenzo. The fact that Southwest remaining profitable pre/post 9/11 has more to do with a company doing something right and proving that others are doing something wrong.

References:

Income Statement 101: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_statement
Enron Debacle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron
Eastern Debacle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Airlines
Southwest 101: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines

 

[Ophir]

:yeahthat:

Why are we not addressing the larger issue here?

This country is seeing a huge recession in middle to upper-middle class wages. That includes, many of us here in the aviation sector. It's not just Pilots, or Doctors. It's everyone.

Wages are down everywhere. Productivity is up, and profits are also way up. The GAO says incomes have raised . . . but not where they needed to. The incomes of the top 3% of wage earners in this country went up. . . and who are they? CEOs, CFOs, and any other assortment of board members.

Day to day worker's pay is down, while the amount of time spent at work is up from the past 15 to 20 years - even more so if you go further back.

The problem isn't a shortage of anyone, it's a shortage of companies with good ethical practices and employee benefits - pay.

Well put Surreal, well put.

It has been said already but I'll chant it again. We are the people who will make the greatest difference in this industry. The rules and practices have a design that can infuriate someone so easily and pit them against their fellow pilot. But if we can stick together and protect our collective livelihoods like they were robbing our own personal liberties we will be better for it.

I see a lot of trash talk at SKYW but I also see a pilot group that tries to stick together. We are eroding at the seems and pilot shortage or not, we are the first line of defense when it comes to protecting what is right and wrong in the industry.

 

[MD11Driver]

I am convinced that Kit Darby is part of a greater conspiricy with the ATA and airlines to create this "shortage" and at the same time, the various pilot farms put these ads for $29,995 in Flying Magazine showing these 20 something kids sitting in the cockpit of a 777 with a pilot uniform on and a big grin.. which then leads to all these people that "don't know" what they want to do when they finish college saying "heck, I can be an airline pilot for $29,995!" and there goes the shortage!

Sorry, if you want a pilot shortage, go to India, here in the US there is a huge surplus!