Iranian fighter planes (huh?)

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One night we had a few Iranian UPT students call the MPs demanding that the "date" they'd picked up in town and brought back to base for romance, be arrested. . When the MP's arrived they found the poor girl beaten and bloodied in an Iranian's room, with several furious Iranians hanging over her. . The Iranian students' complaint was that the "girl" turned out to be a guy, which they thought was a stoning offense.

I remember someone quietly asking " I wonder how far they got with her before they found out?"

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I do love to read the bluster on the internet from Americans who laugh at the Iranian AF and so easily proclaim what a piece of cake it's going to be to roundly trounce them if we ever engage in combat.

It's easy to have that gusto when all you're doing is matching up stats in virtual dick-measuring. It all looks so simple, and it's OBVIOUS that those fantastic US fighters are just going to clown all over those Iranians in their 70s-era rust buckets, right?

For me...I never underestimate the capabilities of a foe. He's the best pilot in their best equipment, right up until the minute he proves otherwise.

I have slain all manner of high-tech US fighters with fantastic pilots on board, all from behind the stick in a T-38 with no radar and only the most basic of (simulated) weapons. If I can do that, then a good pilot in a Phantom or Tomcat can certainly have his shot at gunning an Eagle, Viper, or Hornet.

As Quatch said, it is DEFINITELY NOT all about the equipment.
 
Iran is one place we would take losses. However. We would win.

Being able to win doesn't mean we should do it though.

Another war in this decade can not be good on overall fatigued forces.
 
I'd be awfully surprised, based on the Persians I've known, if the Iranians turned out to be as Three Stooges as the Arabs. In spite of a sort-of-shared religion, they've a significantly different culture, and are, as a group, considerably better educated and for want of a better word "modern". I don't doubt that we're a lot better at blowing poop up than they are (we ought to be for what we spend), but I suspect they've a nasty surprise or three should we (God forbid) get in a shooting war.
 
We have a former Imperial Iranian Air Force F-14 pilot where I work. He got out of country just before the Shah fell from power. He's a relatively senior Captain and is well respected from what I hear.
 
Here's my take on it and I agree with Hacker, never underestimate your enemy. The Saudi pilots I was in charge of were all going to be helo pilots, not fighter guys but they start out with the same primary flight training. I do fly with Brazilians and Indian students now who are destined to become A-4 and Mig-29 pilots respectively. With that said, talking to my counterparts on the fighter said and the observations are similiar excpet their student go through a better selection process and they get a slightly better product.

Anway, the Saudi's had a poor process of selecting their Navy pilots. The majority of students we saw lacked motivation and lacked the basic skills to effectively keep up with their foreighn counterparts, let alone the US students. Yet they paid good money and the program pushed the majority through the program. Now, I will say 10-15% had ability as 3 of my 22 students definitely demonstrated an above average ability to fly. Another 5 or so were average ability and the rest were fodder.

The other issue that comes into play is after all their training, once the pilots return to Kingdom, they don't fly like their counterparts in the USN. They often don't fly at night, in IMC, in hazardous conditions, etc. They don't accumulate a whole lot of hours and thus are often not proficient. My assumption is a lot of the same issues arise in the Saudi Air Force. However, given a war or situation that allows for a nation to allow their pilots to fly, fight and gain experience, it's those 10% that can reak havoc. Afterall, our ridiculous ROE in Vietnam allowed pilots to fly and fight without much fear of being destroyed on the ground and they too had their 10% of quality pilots. Matching US records, they had 3 Mig-21 aces, 16 kills amonst the three: Nguyen Van Coc (9 claimed, 6 match US records); Nguyen Tiem Sam (6, 5 match US records); Nguyen Duc Soat (5 kills). We usually win based on training, motivation, experience, etc. Our enemy can develop that, if given the opportunity.

Speaking of which, the Saudi's purchased more fighter aircraft and asked the USAF for an increased number of students and they said no but the Navy has stepped up and said we will take them in Kingsville. No approval yet but we are standing by for Royal Saudi AF types this summer, possibly.
 
I remember trying to teach Kuwaiti mechanics how to work on the F-404, and related systems for their F-18 program. That was SCARY to say the least.
 
Hacker15e said:
I do love to read the bluster on the internet from Americans who laugh at the Iranian AF and so easily proclaim what a piece of cake it's going to be to roundly trounce them if we ever engage in combat.

It's easy to have that gusto when all you're doing is matching up stats in virtual dick-measuring. It all looks so simple, and it's OBVIOUS that those fantastic US fighters are just going to clown all over those Iranians in their 70s-era rust buckets, right?

For me...I never underestimate the capabilities of a foe. He's the best pilot in their best equipment, right up until the minute he proves otherwise.

I have slain all manner of high-tech US fighters with fantastic pilots on board, all from behind the stick in a T-38 with no radar and only the most basic of (simulated) weapons. If I can do that, then a good pilot in a Phantom or Tomcat can certainly have his shot at gunning an Eagle, Viper, or Hornet.

As Quatch said, it is DEFINITELY NOT all about the equipment.
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All kidding aside. . Maybe CzechAirman's senior captain is my Captain Tahouri. . I often wondered if Tahouri left Iran. As I said, there were exceptions. . And that was part of the mystery I never quite figured out. . How a few of them could be competent, but the majority so incompetent. . I never wanted to risk offending them, so I never asked Tahouri "hey what's the problem with these other guys in your squadron?" . As Boris said, they're not Arabs, they're Persian, and they'll be a headache if we start a war with them. . It just won't be their AF that's the major headache. . Hacker and Bunk said, we won't underestimate them, and they won't, which just highlights the reason for my confidence in our air forces. . Disciplined pros. . That's their job and they are VERY good at it. . But my job is different than Hacker's. . I'm doing a comparative analysis based on my experience specifically with the Iranian military (and others from that region). I've been in this discussion before, prior to conflict with the Libyans in the 80s and the Iraqis later. . I always buck the crowd making the same prediction I'm making here. . I actually agree with most of the individual statements made here. . The difference is, I've been inside both camps. . Trained with both camps. . Talked to others on the ground with recent experience (like Inverted) . . I make the call based on that comparison. . It's not just a matter of the equipment. . Our pilots and their support personnel really are that good, and by comparison, as a group the Iranians are that bad. . I don't want war, and I'll be unhappy if our politicians order our guys into another ill-conceived conflict. . But minus significant Russian help, overall our air forces will annihilate them if they are given a free hand to do what they are trained to do. .

You just have to see it to believe it.
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Springer said:
My "assigned" roommate at UPT (Willy) was an Iranian Hussan Bakhtiari (why do I still remember his name after 40 yrs?). He had washed back into our class from gawd knows how many previous classes. I still remember walking into my quarters for the first time and there he was on the living room floor with an electric frying pan cooking a hamburger in Crisco....

Even though we tried to help him he struggled in our class. Having spent some time in the Phantom somehow I can't picture him flying one.
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Yeh. . That!!

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When I was at NETSAFA, the grades of all foreigners were compared on tests, this included comparing the officers and enlisted. The Muslims were at the bottom and the Saudi's were at the bottom of everyone, even the Mexican enlisted folks scored higher on tests, on average. Not fair as those test were not the same so why we compared the grades, not sure. But in general, the Kuwaiti's and Saudi's were just very incompetent overall.

Qutch said:
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All kidding aside. . Maybe CzechAirman's senior captain is my Captain Tahouri. . I often wondered if Tahouri left Iran. As I said, there were exceptions. . And that was part of the mystery I never quite figured out. . How a few of them could be competent, but the majority so incompetent. . I never wanted to risk offending them, so I never asked Tahouri "hey what's the problem with these other guys in your squadron?" . As Boris said, they're not Arabs, they're Persian, and they'll be a headache if we start a war with them. . It just won't be their AF that's the major headache. . Hacker and Bunk said, we won't underestimate them, and they won't, which just highlights the reason for my confidence in our air forces. . Disciplined pros. . That's their job and they are VERY good at it. . But my job is different than Hacker's. . I'm doing a comparative analysis based on my experience specifically with the Iranian military (and others from that region). I've been in this discussion before, prior to conflict with the Libyans in the 80s and the Iraqis later. . I always buck the crowd making the same prediction I'm making here. . I actually agree with most of the individual statements made here. . The difference is, I've been inside both camps. . Trained with both camps. . Talked to others on the ground with recent experience (like Inverted) . . I make the call based on that comparison. . It's not just a matter of the equipment. . Our pilots and their support personnel really are that good, and by comparison, as a group the Iranians are that bad. . I don't want war, and I'll be unhappy if our politicians order our guys into another ill-conceived conflict. . But minus significant Russian help, overall our air forces will annihilate them if they are given a free hand to do what they are trained to do. .

You just have to see it to believe it.
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Yeh. . That!!

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The Singapore F-15 guys were just moving in at Mountain Home AFB when I was leaving. This is from Peace Carvin V treaty I believe. They built their own buildings and brought their aircraft to train with US F-15 guys. One would think integrating hardware and training with current US base and operations produces the most qualified and prepared squadrons for foreign nationals.
 
So ILL said:
The Singapore F-15 guys were just moving in at Mountain Home AFB when I was leaving. This is from Peace Carvin V treaty I believe. They built their own buildings and brought their aircraft to train with US F-15 guys. One would think integrating hardware and training with current US base and operations produces the most qualified and prepared squadrons for foreign nationals.
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I agree but some nations can't keep with the training requirements to keep aviators up to speed. Probably a money issue though I don't think that's the case for the Saudi's.
 
Saw on FB today
406521_348796481810858_100000415275620_1218507_446459516_n.jpg
 
NickH said:
We'd lose a war against Iran just as we lost against Iraq and Afghanistan
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If we went in and fought an actual war, like in GW1, we'd whop ass, like in GW1. We would have a clear objective, and whipe the military off the face of this earth. Comparing the recent Iraq war, and the so called war in Afghanistan isn't a fair comparison.
 
What would that "win", exactly? Another quagmire into which to send the blood we can't spare and the treasure we don't have? The point is, just blowing up the other guy's military isn't winning a war.
 
So ILL said:
Saw on FB today
406521_348796481810858_100000415275620_1218507_446459516_n.jpg
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Yawn.

Those of us who have actually been close to the Iranian border (and heard them talking on 243.0....you know, the Guard that the military listens to and that some mythical "air defense site" would be listening to) know this isn't really even a well-written joke.
 
NickH said:
We'd lose a war against Iran just as we lost against Iraq and Afghanistan
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Militarily, the US completely annihilated the militaries of both Iraq and Afghanistan, which is not a surprise...which is what we're discussing here.

How to manage insurgencies in other countries is another topic entirely that has nothing to do with the instruments of power that the military brings to the table.
 
Hacker15e said:
Yawn.

Those of us who have actually been close to the Iranian border (and heard them talking on 243.0....you know, the Guard that the military listens to and that some mythical "air defense site" would be listening to) know this isn't really even a well-written joke.
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Actually I had a VHF and could hear guard on that as well. More than once heard Iranian airliners being warned away from carrier groups and the excited response of their pilots. Also I had a conversation with the mythical Kuawaiti air defense when they claimed my code was not on the ATO. Really got my heart racing as I was sure there was an F-15 pilot somewhere in the area.
 
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