Iranian fighter planes (huh?)

[Hacker15e]

I hear even a B-52 got a "kill" during Red Flag. It might have been a half-drunken layover story but I heard that someone got careless during an intercept and ended up in "the cone"

I've actually ended up in that position myself (sts), although it was after the tail stingers had been removed. In the debrief they were quick to remind me that I'd be dead "if only...."

 

[Hacker15e]

The Iranians have an Air force which consists of some very capable equipment in the hands of incompetent pilots. There are others here who know better than I why, it seems, Middle Eastern-ers have absolutely no aptitude when it comes to technical skills like flying an airplane. I've been told it's because of the servant / owner mentality, but I'm not sure.

As has been mentioned in this thread, some Persian pilots are good, and some aren't. Many US military folks trained and flew with them in the 1970s. The reports I hear is that they were not as big of clowns as other pilots from that neighborhood.

"Middle Easterners" is an enormous generalization the way you're using it. Most Arabs would be pissed that you were lumping them together with Persians, and the Persians would likewise be pissed at being thought of as Arabs.

Iran was GIVEN a large number of our surplus F-14 Tomcats.

Nope. Sold to them brand new.

But, yes, Iran has an Air Force, and if looked at only from the equipment aspect could be legitimately dangerous.

I think the opposite: from an equipment-only perspective, US forces by far win the "paper" battle.

 

[GX]

As has been mentioned in this thread, some Persian pilots are good, and some aren't. Many US military folks trained and flew with them in the 1970s. The reports I hear is that they were not as big of clowns as other pilots from that neighborhood.

"Middle Easterners" is an enormous generalization the way you're using it. Most Arabs would be pissed that you were lumping them together with Persians, and the Persians would likewise be pissed at being thought of as Arabs.

Experience from controlling their neighbors to the east (Iraq, Kuwait, UAE) for several years, as recently as 2011 gives me a different perspective than "someone from 1970". We interfaced with Turks, Saudis, Yemeni, Iranian and UAE types. I would not get into the right seat with any of them as acting PIC. Call me too general. I'm sure the Kurds, and Turks would have a say in the say in the "lumping" discussion too. It is what it is; my opinion. You have yours.

So to get this back on track, my apologies for stating that ALL of the Tomcats they purchased were freebies. They bought a few.

 

[Qutch]

The Iranians have an Air force which consists of some very capable equipment in the hands of incompetent pilots. There are others here who know better than I why, it seems, Middle Eastern-ers have absolutely no aptitude when it comes to technical skills like flying an airplane. I've been told it's because of the servant / owner mentality, but I'm not sure. Iran was GIVEN a large number of our surplus F-14 Tomcats. There are several that are still flying, if just barely.

But, yes, Iran has an Air Force, and if looked at only from the equipment aspect could be legitimately dangerous.

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The Assassination Program -

Here's something that may shed light on the small gap in perspectives here regarding Iranian capability. . I've been watching for some time, with great interest, news stories appearing mainly on the back pages of foreign press. . Iranian nuclear engineers are being picked off, one by one, by someone. . Assassinated, around the world, even in Iran. . I believe (speculation) that US and Israeli Special Operations are thinning the Iranian engineering pool. . Here's why........

Those of us who've worked on the ground with people from that part of the world tell a story which is, admittedly, a little hard to believe. . That's why I said I didn't want to be in this thread alone trying to tell this story. . But the observations that Springer, Cannasis, Blackhawk, bunk, myself and others are telling is one shared by US and Israeli Intelligence (not speculation) . . And it's so important, it presents an offensive capability for the US, against Iran, that might not be available against other countries outside that region. . That is, the Iranian team bench of competent engineering is pretty thin. . Start picking off its team players, and besides being demoralized, its nuclear program (like it's aircraft maintenance system) may have trouble re-filling those slots. . Watching the story below play out, and other information I have, confirms my belief that Iran's defensive and offensive strengths won't be achieved through it's Air Force. . That said, guys in Hacker's position are right to be dismissive of our speculation, for now. . They have to stay focused. . Let's just hope, for their sake, that we are correct about the Iranian AF's relative incompetence.

Take your pick-

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-11/iran-nuclear-scientist-killed-by-magnetic-bomb-under-his-car-fars-reports.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/iranian-scientist-killed-in-tehran-bomb-attack/2012/01/11/gIQAT1V7pP_story.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0112/Are-the-assassinations-of-Iranian-scientists-an-act-of-terrorism

This is all an open secret in DC right now. . We're already at war there.
(another example of a Classified Program that isn't really a secret)

Target: The thin Iranian engineering bench (Senator Santorum)


The Covert War

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[///AMG]

Experience from controlling their neighbors to the east (Iraq, Kuwait, UAE) for several years, as recently as 2011 gives me a different perspective than "someone from 1970". We interfaced with Turks, Saudis, Yemeni, Iranian and UAE types. I would not get into the right seat with any of them as acting PIC. Call me too general. I'm sure the Kurds, and Turks would have a say in the say in the "lumping" discussion too. It is what it is; my opinion. You have yours.

I'm not going to put words in Hackers mouth, but I think that he was probably speaking more towards the tactical skills of their military aviators. We taught them western style tactics in the 1970's, and one would presume that they at least retained *some* of that knowledge base. Granted, tactics have changed a whole heck of a lot since then, but the point is that their background was at least originally formed using a western style mentality.

So to get this back on track, my apologies for stating that ALL of the Tomcats they purchased were freebies. They bought a few.

Last I heard, we were still holding onto the 80th Tomcat that was part of the original bill of sale to the Shah's AF. I've never heard that they received any free-bees, though if you have some supporting info, I'd certainly be interested to read it.

 

[Qutch]

.....Last I heard, we were still holding onto the 80th Tomcat that was part of the original bill of sale to the Shah's AF. I've never heard that they received any free-bees, though if you have some supporting info, I'd certainly be interested to read it.

I track their supply network to some degree. . They've got problems, with or without the Tomcat. . They need parts, and they need to steal them. . Their mechanics need retraining, and their pilots crash them when they occassionally get airborne. . Part of their Air Force is 70s US parts, trained in english. . Post 70s, in Russian parts, via Russian training. . Can you imagine having to deal with that? . What a mess. . They could barely maintain these aircraft when we had US personnel in Iran helping them, or fly them when we were training them ourselves. . If things have improved since then under Islamic religious leadership, it will be news to me.

Take your pick below - (they don't even have enough spare parts)

Video - http://www.winknews.com/Local-Florida/2011-03-23/Undercover-agent-thwarts-conspiracy-to-export-jet-engines-from-Miami-to-Iran

FBI - http://www.fbi.gov/atlanta/press-releases/2011/members-of-international-procurement-network-indicted-for-supplying-iran-with-u.s.-military-aircraft-components

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/June/11-nsd-826.html

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[Hacker15e]

So to get this back on track, my apologies for stating that ALL of the Tomcats they purchased were freebies. They bought a few.

I have never heard anything other than that they were brand new, outright purchased aircraft. Where are you getting that they were "surplus", "given", "freebies", etc?

Here's just one citation, from Smithsonian Air and Space:

FIVE YEARS BEFORE THE 1979 Islamic Revolution transformed Iran, Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, a pilot who had earned his wings in 1946 flying a British Tiger Moth, arranged for Iran to purchase 80 Grumman F-14A Tomcats and 633 Hughes AIM-54 Phoenix missiles for $2 billion. (The Iranian deal is credited with saving the F-14 program, which Congress had stopped funding, and by some with saving the Grumman Corporation from bankruptcy.)

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/persiancats.html

 

[Hacker15e]

Experience from controlling their neighbors to the east (Iraq, Kuwait, UAE) for several years, as recently as 2011 gives me a different perspective than "someone from 1970". We interfaced with Turks, Saudis, Yemeni, Iranian and UAE types. I would not get into the right seat with any of them as acting PIC. Call me too general. I'm sure the Kurds, and Turks would have a say in the say in the "lumping" discussion too. It is what it is; my opinion. You have yours.

I'm not "someone from 1970", and some of us have experience actually flying with those guys you mention, too. I have instructed or flown with fighter pilots from Saudi, UAE, Bahrain, Egypt, and even Israel as recently as 2010...because I spent 2011 in Afghanistan and flew with exclusively USAF pilots during that assignment. Trained them in UPT, trained them in IFF, and flew with or against them in the F-15E, so I've seen their act on many different levels.

Yes, guys from that neighborhood in general are comparatively not good.

The leap of logic, that they're all "incompetent pilots", and that means that our fighters taking on theirs in direct combat is going to be some kind of cakewalk, is just wrong. Pretty enormous military mistake to underestimate your foe. As ///AMG posted, the senior pilots in the Iranian AF were western educated, and tactically trained by USAF and USN fighter pilots, and had access to US tactics and doctrine that was current in the late 1970s. In addition, they've had access to Russian tactics and weapons in the time since then.

I haven't flown with any current Iranian AF pilots, though, and neither have you, so those pilots from the 1970s who did are about the only firsthand source of information about their skills.

Let's not forget that, even with the solid butt-kicking that the IrIAF was given during Desert Storm in 1991, a lot of US pilots and aircrew went home in flag-draped caskets, too.

It's pretty easy for people to be dismissive when it's not actually their pink butt being put at risk...so you're right...I have a different opinion and perspective than you do.

 

[Blackhawk]

Yeah, I'm sure these guys are thinking about how incompetent the Iraqi SAMs are.
http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/LucasStL/1180/

 

[bunk22]

The fact is, Iran purchased brand new F-14A's from the factory, not surplus, not new, etc.

 

[///AMG]

The fact is, Iran purchased brand new F-14A's from the factory, not surplus, not new, etc.

Thanks for the links Qutch, but this is what I was wondering about....ie documentation that we ever gave away free aircraft in their entirety, either surplus or not. I've never heard such a thing, though like everyone else, I have certainly heard of grey/black market transfer of parts/mx supplies (Iran contra or not).

 

[Boris Badenov]

Wait, what? Israel's entire airforce was given to them. Well, ok, maybe not the indigenous uh "upgrades" of the equipment we gave them and they proceeded to reverse engineer and sell to China...

 

[FlyingScot]

We'd lose a war against Iran just as we lost against Iraq and Afghanistan

While a war with Iran is a loosing proposition. The theoretical air war is an interesting one. I'd think we'd make quick work of the Iranian Air Force. Iran and Iraq fought to a stalemate, so we can assume the military forces are similar in strength.

I think we could take care of the Iranian Military with a few months effort and solve the rest of the Iranian issue with 8 more years of effort. I'd like to see the nuclear program ended then the nut job could spot all the crazy he wants without me being concerned.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

It's pretty easy for people to be dismissive when it's not actually their pink butt being put at risk

My instructor used to tell me all the time in regards to ATC screwing up and blindly following their instructions. All I could think about was pink butts for the rest of my IR training

 

[///AMG]

Iran and Iraq fought to a stalemate, so we can assume the military forces are similar in strength.

I think you could have made that assumption in the late '80's/early '90's, not so sure about today.

 

[Qutch]

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Thanks for the links Qutch, but this is what I was wondering about....ie documentation that we ever gave away free aircraft in their entirety, either surplus or not. I've never heard such a thing, though like everyone else, I have certainly heard of grey/black market transfer of parts/mx supplies (Iran contra or not).

No. I think you, Hacker and bunk are right about that one. We never gave them anything. In fact, the other way around. Even during the post revolution Iran-Contra scandal, Oliver North, General Seacord and the Israelis made them pay exorbitant prices for US weapons. Then we froze their US bank accounts on top of that. Pre-revolution, the oil rich Peacock Throne Shaw was a piggy bank for US weapons suppliers. Sure, occasional "gifts" were exchanged here and there. Seems like I even recall one or 2 UPT IP's being given expensive cars by their students. (were not allowed to keep them) . The Shaw's own son, Prince Reza Pahlavi was trained at Reese AFB. The Iranian Air Force was heavily weighted with the sons of Monarchy loyalists (who had all the oil money). So, even though it's always possible that a weapons supplier might have given away a few emerald encrusted jets as gifts to the Shaw, or demo models to their Air Force, that misses the larger point. By and large, the money flowed in one direction - ours. . Lots and lots of money.

However, the larger part of Canassis' point is valid I think, even though Hacker and the rest of you wearing flight suits are absolutely correct in dismissing it right now. I don't think the Iranian AF as a whole will last more than a few hours against you guys if you're ordered in. Partly because I know how well equipped, trained, supported and professional you guys are (which includes totally ignoring the posts in this thread). But also because I know something interesting about the Iranian military, even beyond the unbelievable incompetence I witnessed along with Springer and others. Stuff that hasn't been explained here yet, like who was executed after the Shaw fled Iran, and what US aircraft technicians did with their spare parts before they boarded flights for home. Stuff that didn't make the newspapers. I'll post it later.

(You and Hacker....turn your heads away on my next post. You're not supposed to see this.)

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[Qutch]

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The Cliff Notes version:

Total Organizational Upheaval (the Purges) - The change of power in Iran during their revolution was not peaceful. It was brutal. The Iranian military was owned by the Shah, and when he left, much fell apart. The new religious leadership feared portions of the military, particularly the Air Force. . Most of Iran's Air Force officers were trained by what they called "The Great Satan", the US and Israel, and came from prominent families loyal to the Shah. That made them marked men. .Their best AF Officers fell victim to the "Purges" of 1979 and 1980. . Some fled for the US, some were executed. On their way out the door US techs sabotaged some of Iran's best aviation technology. The AF budget was slashed by the new religious leaders. Those few pilots who remained had no leadership, and had an understandable morale problem. Unlike here, where enlisted techs are treated with respect and are valued members of the team, Iran's aircraft techs, the Homafaran, were treated poorly. They triggered a bloody revolt now referred to as the Farahabad incident. Then Iran rolled into a disastrous 8 year war with a US supported Iraq, without US spare parts or retraining. Next, they turned to Russia, where what ever was left of their StanEval cohesion was destroyed. Now they juggle US and Russian inventory, English, Russian and Farsi languages for training.

What would happen here? - Try to picture our own Air Force undergoing that upheaval. Everyone you know who was exceptional has been executed or fled to China. Budget slashed. You are not trusted by civilian leadership, solely because you are Air Force. You juggle Chinese and Russian inventory, and have to speak 2 foreign languages. Your maintenance people hate your guts. Try to imagine how much valuable institutional knowledge would be lost in your squadron after a few years, or decades of that. How much 70s tactical knowledge would remain?

Iranian Air Force Today - That's the picture I have in my head. A country in a part of the world already known for technical weakness. Very little of what we armed them with in the 70s (aircraft, discipline, training, tactical knowledge) is left. Their Russian ground launch weapons may be dangerous, I don't know. Man against man, one on one, aircraft to aircraft, that could be dangerous, sure. . But I had this same exact debate before Libya (Gulf of Sidra and Gadhaffi compound) and both Iraq wars, and I'm sticking with that same position now. . Canassis' larger point will be proven right..... in the whole, these guys can't fly. . They have no "Air Force" in the disciplined organizational sense, the way we define it. There wasn't in the 70s. . It's even less so now.

Prediction - If ordered into combat, minus Russian manned SAMs, our guys will annihilate the Iranian AF precisely because Hacker, AMG and their support personnel will pay absolutely NO attention to anything posted here. . None. They'll go in with their 'A' Game, regardless. . They really are that good. Forgive me for my confidence in American military aviation. It's a weakness. . I'm trying to fix that.

(Sample documentation - see next post)

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[Qutch]

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Take your pick (documentaion for above post)

".......as the war dragged on, this edge was gradually lost because of the repeated purges within the ranks of the Iranian officers which removed experienced officers and pilots who were suspected of disloyalty to the Islamic regime."
http://www.iiaf.net/aircraft/jetfighters/F14/f14.html (Imperial Iranian Air Force site by Major Farhad Nassirkhani )

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"In spite of these strengths, Iran was unable to translate them into a consequential advantage in the war. Two primary factors have been blamed for this, Iranian political purges of trained Air Force personnel and inability to procure equipment to maintain their aircraft because of sanctions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Air_Force_in_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

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"The Iranian air force never fully recovered from the effects of the 1979 revolution. At the beginning of the war, pilots were in short supply and flying proficiency was markedly lower than before the revolution. U.S. technicians who left Iran during the days preceding the fall of the Shah succeeded in erasing inventory records, ripping avionics packages out of F-14 aircraft, and destroying caches of repair parts at bases around Iran. The clerics purged a large part of the conventional military structure after the 1979 revolution leaving the military broken and barely able to defend Iran from the initial Iraqi ground invasion in 1980. After Khomeini seized power on 11 February 1979, the revolutionary regime regarded the Air Force as a waste of money that rightfully belonged to the mostazafin (poor oppressed masses). One of the new government's first acts was a purge of the armed forces, particularly the officer corps, which was (probably correctly) thought to be a hotbed of monarchist sentiment. The Air Force, where virtually the entire fighting element - the combat pilots - was composed of officers, was especially hard hit. To make matters worse, Iran's best combat pilots had been trained in the United States and Israel, making them particularly suspect."http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/airforce.htm . (GlobalSecurity.org)
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Institute for National Strategic Studies . (Google Search "Khomeini's Incorporation of the Iranian Military") Air Force starts at pdf page #19 (8 of 9) .
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2F129.132.57.230%2Fserviceengine%2FFiles%2FISN%2F23563%2Fipublicationdocument_singledocument%2F272541c1-2e49-4d94-a7e2-58e823584eed%2Fen%2Fmcnair48.pdf&ei=GuMqT9isMsGqiAK966C3Cg&usg=AFQjCNEfZUvKI4IpwKxD5cwkPyFks9602g&sig2=tqXjnwgQ-QY1LkqFv0KGbQ

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[Hacker15e]

I'd certainly be happy if the IranAF turns out to be a bunch of incompetent boobs that collapse in of the weight of their own idiocy. Might that happen? More than likely.

I'm just not going to be in the CAP waiting for H-Hour and expecting that.

 

[bunk22]

The Iranian Tomcat fleet tore apart the Iraqi Air Force during the 8 year war. I know people often doubt Tom Cooper's research but until somebody else does a study, his is it. If his research is accurate, Iranian F-14's scored around 120-130 kills in the war (possible as low as 80 and high as 155), losing 3 to 6 of their own in air combat. He has been able to confirm 3 Tomcats shot down, I believe all by Mirage F1's, another damaged by a Mig-23 (pics of the damaged Tomcat are in one of his books), and another 3 lost in unknown circumstances. One of which was an air to air engagement but it's thought the Tomcat departed flight and crashed. Remember, regardless of ability, the Tomcat drivers were trained in the US and were able to gain combat experience throughout the war.