Impossible battle

It drives me crazy to sit and watch and FOs jockey the throttles like they're heavy into an internet pron session. Seems to me it's just an RJ thing, always drove me crazy riding in the back at well. Spool up spool back spool up spool back, all the way to the runway. Never noticed it so much on props aside from the Q. Me, I set the power to the approximate setting and short of my speed about to drop below ref or overspeed the flaps I pretty much don't touch them. Unless it's perfectly calm out, your speed is going to fluctuate. Quit chasing it and making even more unstable than you already are. I've been getting on folks doing it lately, seems like everyone I've flown with the past couple months has done it and I've had it. Makes you seem like a ham fisted idiot flying up front to the passengers in the back. We're supposed to be professional and smooth. Use your brain and the flying ability you're supposed to have for a change. Too bad I can't actually say that and have to be nice about it. :D

Haven't seen a spoilers jockey yet, I'll have to keep an eye out...
 
Two things...

1)I'm very glad I flew corporate before 121. That taught me to ALWAYS be smooth.

2)Knowing the fuel flow of your airplane when fully configured and at Vref. Even in airplanes that have pretty big differences in landing weight, this value will always be close to the baseline. This really helped me reduce the power changes required in gusty/variable conditions.

Maybe #2 is worth pointing out to those guys? Also, slap the crap out of them if they're doing a climb in "Speed" mode. When riding in back, I can always tell when the PF is using that useless mode.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Two things...

1)I'm very glad I flew corporate before 121. That taught me to ALWAYS be smooth.

2)Knowing the fuel flow of your airplane when fully configured and at Vref. Even in airplanes that have pretty big differences in landing weight, this value will always be close to the baseline. This really helped me reduce the power changes required in gusty/variable conditions.

Maybe #2 is worth pointing out to those guys? Also, slap the crap out of them if they're doing a climb in "Speed" mode. When riding in back, I can always tell when the PF is using that useless mode.
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Yeah I could have used more time in corporate.

I agree with the Fuel Flow statement for jets, I remember toward the end in a turboprop I could tell by the seat of my pants if we were gonna hold speed, the old Saab was just easy in some ways. Hit your FF marks, and memorize a few of the VS rates for climbs and descents and things work out like you planned it.

If it were up to me we'd do everything in Pitch mode, VS mode, or Approach mode.

Screaming_Emu said:
I try to make it so that if someone has their eyes closed in the back they can't tell we're moving. I find the best way to do this is to close my eyes too.
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LOL. Don't let me wake up and catch you sleeping!
 
GypsyPilot said:
Knowing the fuel flow of your airplane when fully configured and at Vref. Even in airplanes that have pretty big differences in landing weight, this value will always be close to the baseline. This really helped me reduce the power changes required in gusty/variable conditions.

Maybe #2 is worth pointing out to those guys? Also, slap the crap out of them if they're doing a climb in "Speed" mode. When riding in back, I can always tell when the PF is using that useless mode.
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They used to teach that landing weight plus 20 was a good ballpark figure for your N1 setting when fully configured for landing. Not sure if they still teach that or not, but it was pretty close to what you needed to hold Vref at flaps 45. Part of the problem with guys being aggressive on the thrust levers is they tend to want to fly the trend vector rather than use the actual indicated airspeed in reference to the Vref bug. The trend vector is an excellent tool, but over reliance on it, especially during approach, tends to lead to a lot of unnecessary thrust lever movement.

Speed mode in the -200 works well on climb out below 10K and emergency descents. Otherwise, it is absolute crap. It always annoyed the crap out of me when pilots would use speed mode without being at flight idle in a descent and just sitting back while the airplane oscillated trying to hold that set speed.
 
I find I use fuel flows for most things in the plane but I gravitate toward N1 setting on approach using the GW+20. I have pointed out those numbers for some folks as ballpark techniques. The speed trend vector on the RJ is much more docile than it was on the Q, but it's still pretty much completely useless once you start an approach.

Speed mode seems to work well on climbout up until the teens assuming you're not going through any turbulence or layers. On descent it's fairly useless below 10 unless you're using the boards. It will just pitch hunt and hunt and hunt. And hunt. And then hunt some more.

The question is how much of this is someone really not able to fly the plane beyond a caveman rote level ("ooh airspeed slow I slam throttle forward ooh fast now I yank it all the way back") and how much of it is just wanting to be sloppy/lazy ("sure the nose will pitch up and down hunting airspeed in speen mode, but it keeps it in the ballpark adn I don't want to be bothered making the effort to keep things smooth"). I guess it really doesn't matter though because neither of those belong in an airline cockpit, although situation one is fine for someone still new to the plane and figuring it out. Frustrating for me if it's the second one becasue there's really nothing I can do about it except whine on da innerwebz.
 
Rocketman99 said:
Speed mode seems to work well on climbout up until the teens assuming you're not going through any turbulence or layers. On descent it's fairly useless below 10 unless you're using the boards. It will just pitch hunt and hunt and hunt. And hunt. And then hunt some more.
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Speed mode is one of those things on this airplane where you wonder how in the hell it got through testing. Unless its glass smooth and/or we're really light (making sure it keeps us above 500fpm) I'll throw on turbulence mode on the autopilot while using speed mode, tends to dampen out the oscillations to an acceptable level. Even then I only use speed mode when I'm a bit on the tired side or when trying to lose a lot of altitude quickly (the only thing this airplane is good at). But when I do use it, turb mode is almost always on.
 
Rocketman99 said:
It drives me crazy to sit and watch and FOs jockey the throttles like they're heavy into an internet pron session. Seems to me it's just an RJ thing, always drove me crazy riding in the back at well. Spool up spool back spool up spool back, all the way to the runway. Never noticed it so much on props aside from the Q. Me, I set the power to the approximate setting and short of my speed about to drop below ref or overspeed the flaps I pretty much don't touch them. Unless it's perfectly calm out, your speed is going to fluctuate. Quit chasing it and making even more unstable than you already are. I've been getting on folks doing it lately, seems like everyone I've flown with the past couple months has done it and I've had it. Makes you seem like a ham fisted idiot flying up front to the passengers in the back. We're supposed to be professional and smooth. Use your brain and the flying ability you're supposed to have for a change. Too bad I can't actually say that and have to be nice about it. :D
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I don't like rapid power lever movements, mostly because one has to make a rapid rudder movement to go with it or the ball (and your keester) will slide out of the cage (your seat) and wind up against the sidewall. There are other reasons I don't like them, too, but in the current sled it's mostly the coordination issue - especially down slow.

Even on the jet, with shiny FADECs preventing me from doing damage, rapid thrust lever movements are just uncomfortable. Some folks liked to go from IDLE to THRUST SET in three seconds or less (the manual said "not less than three seconds" with emphasis in the original) on the 145. It'll do it, but the people in back won't enjoy it.
 
thevideographer said:
What's the point of flying a jet if you don't fly it like a jet?
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Define "fly it like a jet." If you mean hamfisted pretending it's a personal rocketship then wrong career field. As an airline pilot your job is to provide the smoothest safest most comfortable ride for the passengers in the back. Flying like mentioned in the OP provides basically none of those aside from being generally safe.
 
Rocketman99 said:
If you mean hamfisted pretending it's a personal rocketship then wrong career field.
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I like how you can tell me that I'm in the wrong career field based on one difference of opinion on how quickly throttles can be moved. That takes skill - especially since we've never met or flown together. :confused:
 
My no doubt extremely unwelcome 2c: If you're in the left seat, you can instruct the other dude on points of technique up to a point. A very fine and quickly reached point. If you're in the right seat and you don't think you're going to die or get violated, best to just suffer in silence. I mean, don't get me wrong, the same stuff irritates me, too. But, by and large, it's not my place. Er, IMHO, YMMV, etc etc etc.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I find I use fuel flows for most things in the plane but I gravitate toward N1 setting on approach using the GW+20. I have pointed out those numbers for some folks as ballpark techniques. The speed trend vector on the RJ is much more docile than it was on the Q, but it's still pretty much completely useless once you start an approach.
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Once you get a bunch of time in it you'll start feeling the changes in speed before the trend vector starts moving. It's not as jumpy as an Airbus (or it sounds like the Q) vector and can be very slow to react. I've actually seen the actual speed get ahead of the trend vector before. I was taught to use N2 during the approach. 80%+ seems to be a good starting point (on the 200) and then you adjust from there. That's also a really good way to gauge potential windshear. If you are bombing down final and it's taking 90% N2 to stay on speed on GS, then you may have a problem. Again though, anybody with any amount of time in the plane (if they are at all a decent pilot) should be able to fly the approach by feel with out having to use a school house reference cheat. But until somebody gets there, anything the helps get them in the ballpark is a good thing.

Screaming_Emu said:
Speed mode is one of those things on this airplane where you wonder how in the hell it got through testing. Unless its glass smooth and/or we're really light (making sure it keeps us above 500fpm) I'll throw on turbulence mode on the autopilot while using speed mode, tends to dampen out the oscillations to an acceptable level. Even then I only use speed mode when I'm a bit on the tired side or when trying to lose a lot of altitude quickly (the only thing this airplane is good at). But when I do use it, turb mode is almost always on.
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Speed + turb is pretty useful, especially at light weights. I actually used it today to climb all the way to 32,000 before it started oscillating badly. In the 700 it's even smoother. I don't ever use it for a descent though. Just personal preference.


thevideographer said:
What's the point of flying a jet if you don't fly it like a jet?
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Since you took so much offense to Ed asking you the question, I'll phrase it differently and maybe you can answer it this time. How exactly does one fly an aircraft "like a jet"?

Boris Badenov said:
My no doubt extremely unwelcome 2c: If you're in the left seat, you can instruct the other dude on points of technique up to a point. A very fine and quickly reached point. If you're in the right seat and you don't think you're going to die or get violated, best to just suffer in silence. I mean, don't get me wrong, the same stuff irritates me, too. But, by and large, it's not my place. Er, IMHO, YMMV, etc etc etc.
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I agree in practice, but I think it's presumptuous for anybody who is logging PIC to assume that an SIC should hold their tongue in all cases except for the aforementioned. Personally, I am all for an FO pointing out my bad habits. It is entirely possible that they are in fact bad habits that nobody has ever told me I have or, it is possible the FO was taught something incorrectly and has always just assumed that everybody else is doing it wrong. That said, we both know that is not how the world works and many captains would verbally bitchsmack an FO into next month's bid period for questioning their skillz.
 
BobDDuck said:
I agree in practice, but I think it's presumptuous for anybody who is logging PIC to assume that an SIC should hold their tongue in all cases except for the aforementioned. Personally, I am all for an FO pointing out my bad habits. It is entirely possible that they are in fact bad habits that nobody has ever told me I have or, it is possible the FO was taught something incorrectly and has always just assumed that everybody else is doing it wrong. That said, we both know that is not how the world works and many captains would verbally bitchsmack an FO into next month's bid period for questioning their skillz.
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As a low timer speaking from the outside - i've always seen honest critique to be appreciated by those who give a damn. It might even be bad advice, but the fact that you brought it up politely generally does not piss off normal people.

I've critiqued Rocketman99 when he was a student, Rocketman99 has critiqued me when I was. Reasonable folks understand this is how flying works.

I'm curious what the captains out there have to say about speaking up about this type of stuff (an FO put it pretty well earlier I think)
 
For me personally, I don't mind. You're not going to offend me. I don't know it all and I screw up just like every other flying monkey, just ask drunkenbeagle how I learned why exactly wind direction is an important pre-takeoff briefing item on a glider. I prefer my other flying half to actually speak up if he/she sees or thinks something. An FO is supposed to be like a junior ranking officer/enlisted person CRM-wise, an assertive follower. That means you can take initiative and definitely speak up.

As for thevideographer, I said nothing about how you personally move the throttles. AFAIK, I've never flown with you. No need to get upset. What I did say is that jockeying them quicklly is bush league. On older/non-FADEC engines it's also a good way to potentially work yourself into a compressor stall, or so I was taught and read back in my chair force UPT days and I have never seen anything written that argues otherwise.
 
BobDDuck said:
I was taught to use N2 during the approach. 80%+ seems to be a good starting point (on the 200) and then you adjust from there. That's also a really good way to gauge potential windshear. If you are bombing down final and it's taking 90% N2 to stay on speed on GS, then you may have a problem. Again though, anybody with any amount of time in the plane (if they are at all a decent pilot) should be able to fly the approach by feel with out having to use a school house reference cheat. But until somebody gets there, anything the helps get them in the ballpark is a good thing.
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N2? Hmm, I will have to check that out tomorrow. Like new hearing new techniques. As for the windshear, that seems to be equally true on N1. I shouldn't need to be back at 50% or up at 75% to keep my desired speed. End of the day, the important thing is just to recognize it.
 
When I was a Captain on a crew aircraft, I think I made it pretty clear to my F/Os that I wanted to hear EVERYTHING they had to say about anything I did. Right down to technique and "we did it this way back at...". Because I might have learned something. And if I didn't, they probably did. I was speaking more in the abstract...more about what one ought to feel "free" to do with no direction. Not so much because the C/A is more likely to be right (although, in my experience, he/she is), but because, like it or not, there's a hierarchy in a cockpit. You can't have two PICs, it doesn't work. Somebody has to be the final word and wear the brown helmet if anything goes wrong. Animals with two heads don't live very long. When I'm the boss head, I try to listen to the other one. When I'm the other one, I try to shut up unless I have something to say that REALLY needs saying. It works when you do it that way. And it makes for WAY better overnights.
 
BobDDuck said:
How exactly does one fly an aircraft "like a jet"?
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I might be able to answer this. I imagine he's comparing it to a turbo prop. If you know your airplane, you can fly a turbo prop like you stole it and none in the back are any wiser. A visual approach I did this afternoon, should I had been in anything without big massive props and enough reverse/beta(and noise) to knock women's clothes off for miles, we would have been in the next state rather than making a normal landing at ref. I think we were still 200 indicated at 3.5-4 miles.
 
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