IMC in the winter.

[Nark]

I love being told what I've experienced in an airplane. Just throwing it out there.

Well, you seem to love to tell the whole Jetcareers forum what you eat for breakfast; we as a membership know what depths of experience you draw from.

However, between the banter we have given this forum over the past several months, you have no clue what I experience I have. You seem to equate it as similar to yours for some reason. Far from the truth my son.

 

[jhugz]

Well, you seem to love to tell the whole Jetcareers forum what you eat for breakfast; we as a membership know what depths of experience you draw from.

However, between the banter we have given this forum over the past several months, you have no clue what I experience I have. You seem to equate it as similar to yours for some reason. Far from the truth my son.

Why don't you enlighten us with your qualifications?

 

[Mach.12]

until you start to accumulate

There you go..........go pick up ice with an aircraft that is not certified to fly into known icing conditions. Great experience!!!

Who said anything about known icing conditions? I'm talking about IMC. I'll be clearer:

Ayork, practice holds over the field in IMC and if you start to accumulate, then land.

*****

You see, Islandflyer, when you fly in northern climates during the winter and early spring, you tend to have poor weather. I live in the Mid-Atlantic region and did all my IR training during that time. As a result, there were some flights in IMC (which was a great experience). As a result of being in IMC in the Mid-Atlantic during that time of year, we occasionally picked up some ice for short periods of time. Now my experience with folks who fly predominately in the warmer climates is that they have this impression that ice will immediately leap on your plane and accumulate before you have a chance to even mutter a prayer as your plane plummets to a fiery grave. That's not been true in my case, nor have I ever heard of it. For me, it has been a slushy gradual build-up and as we flew we requested different altitudes to avoid it. Usually just listening to approach will let you know what altitude is bad because the ATC guys are good about asking aircraft about it (at least Potomac approach). Also, I've even picked up carb ice in VMC with the freezing level 5000 over my head, so you never can tell. Sometimes, you can pick up unreported ice over terrain and ATC will not let you deviate unless you declare an emergency-particularly if you are flying from MRB to shoot an approach into KBWI, P-40 is active and your over the foothills just west or Frederick, MD.

So, IslandFlyer, I think if you re-read my post and focus on the part where I discuss applying judgment to presented factors and making decisions based on that, you can safely surmise that what I'm really saying is never compromise safety, but train as realistically in as difficult enviroment as you can (and demand that from your instructor), which, I've found, is not hard to do if you're not a bozo.

 

[Nark]

I did. I baited you, but you failed.

I've also stated that I have several thousand hours. While I do not have 10,000, I do have more than you, to include:

Taxing, takeoff and landing in snow.

In addition to accumulating ice on my wings in both FIKI and non-FIKI aircraft.

In addition to Actual Instrument hours looking outside my cockpit (not somebody else's ie. captains) into the abyss of a cloud.

In addition to Night VFR, with zero ground reference, (might as well be IMC)

In addition to Night circling.

In addition to Approaches in IMC.

However, you do have more time as a CFI and a flight Attendant that I do. I will concede that.

 

[R Banger]

I think what he is trying to tell this young up-and-comers is that a trace of won't cause you to drop from the sky.

While ice can be extremely dangerous, in small amounts it can be well managed. There is no need to panic whilst picking up a trace to light rime in a 172 or Cherokee.

I agree with this statement. Yes don't play in ice, when in doubt cancel, but trace and light rime can be managed in the right environment. I am not saying go chase ice, but I am saying for someone who is planning a career. The experience of actual IMC in not so perfect conditions will help you get an idea of what you can and can't do. This will allow you to evaluate your weather conditions better as well as far as making go/no-go decisions in the future. ALWAYS make sure you have an out though. Being able to develop some solid minimums and good understanding of the weather, will allow you to survive when flying up north in the winter time, especially when weather changes from what is forecast midair (which happens a lot here).

 

[A150K]

Haven't we had enough threads with personal attacks and what not.....

On topic, Ice is not to be taking lightly. I have exactly .7 of actual IMC and we picked up a trace of Rime. It was at that point that my 6000 hour, former freight do, currnent corperate pilot CFII put an end to the actual. Why not get out when you can without it having to be an emergency? Is there really a need to hang out in any kind of icing in a 172? A trace may not be a big deal, but what it can turn into is not worth the risk.

 

[A150K]

I did. I baited you, but you failed.

I've also stated that I have several thousand hours. While I do not have 10,000, I do have more than you, to include:

Taxing, takeoff and landing in snow.

In addition to accumulating ice on my wings in both FIKI and non-FIKI aircraft.

In addition to Actual Instrument hours looking outside my cockpit (not somebody else's ie. captains) into the abyss of a cloud.

In addition to Night VFR, with zero ground reference, (might as well be IMC)

In addition to Night circling.

In addition to Approaches in IMC.

However, you do have more time as a CFI and a flight Attendant that I do. I will concede that.

:guns: Really dude? Come on....

 

[A150K]

You have the same attitude as my previous instructor. He says it is experience that you need. However, we would only go if there was a guaranteed way out.

By the way, thanks for all of the information, it's appreciated.

Your avatar scares me....

 

[IslandFlyer]

Haven't we had enough threads with personal attacks and what not.....

On topic, Ice is not to be taking lightly. I have exactly .7 of actual IMC and we picked up a trace of Rime. It was at that point that my 6000 hour, former freight do, currnent corperate pilot CFII put an end to the actual. Why not get out when you can without it having to be an emergency? Is there really a need to hang out in any kind of icing in a 172? A trace may not be a big deal, but what it can turn into is not worth the risk.

But of course there is......to prove a point.

 

[jhugz]

Is there really a need to hang out in any kind of icing in a any airplane?

Fixed it

 

[IslandFlyer]

Who said anything about known icing conditions? I'm talking about IMC. I'll be clearer:

Ayork, practice holds over the field in IMC and if you start to accumulate, then land.

*****

You see, Islandflyer, when you fly in northern climates during the winter and early spring, you tend to have poor weather. I live in the Mid-Atlantic region and did all my IR training during that time. As a result, there were some flights in IMC (which was a great experience). As a result of being in IMC in the Mid-Atlantic during that time of year, we occasionally picked up some ice for short periods of time. Now my experience with folks who fly predominately in the warmer climates is that they have this impression that ice will immediately leap on your plane and accumulate before you have a chance to even mutter a prayer as your plane plummets to a fiery grave. That's not been true in my case, nor have I ever heard of it. For me, it has been a slushy gradual build-up and as we flew we requested different altitudes to avoid it. Usually just listening to approach will let you know what altitude is bad because the ATC guys are good about asking aircraft about it (at least Potomac approach). Also, I've even picked up carb ice in VMC with the freezing level 5000 over my head, so you never can tell. Sometimes, you can pick up unreported ice over terrain and ATC will not let you deviate unless you declare an emergency-particularly if you are flying from MRB to shoot an approach into KBWI, P-40 is active and your over the foothills just west or Frederick, MD.

So, IslandFlyer, I think if you re-read my post and focus on the part where I discuss applying judgment to presented factors and making decisions based on that, you can safely surmise that what I'm really saying is never compromise safety, but train as realistically in as difficult enviroment as you can (and demand that from your instructor), which, I've found, is not hard to do if you're not a bozo.

Totally agree. Mis-read.

Fortunately for us here in the South, the winter means nice low overcast layers without having to worry too much about the threat of icing.

 

[hambone]

I don't understand why some guys think it's a good idea to go into icing (of any kind) with a non FIKI a/c just to build the experience. Why is it even worth going into in the first place? You're flying a non FIKI a/c! Let's think about what kind of planes are non FIKI a/c. Trainers, small personal a/c for short hops, banner tow, parachute jumping, crop dusting. For the most part, a/c that fly in predominantly VFR conditions. Why is it somehow worth it to fly into icing just to see what your limitations are? While we're on this topic, why not fly into the level 5 thunderstorm just to see what your limitations are? Let's start off small, let's fly into the level 1 thunderstorm just for the experience. So the next time you're instructing, you don't have to cancel for a piddly level 1 storm and can even continue the lesson and fly right through it! Then you can graduate to level 2 storms and so on and so forth. Because all storms are the same and since you made through the last one, you can make it through this one. Just like the last time you picked up icing with your student, it's ok to go out and try it again, because hey, why not?

To all the instructors on this board who got a lot of icing experience with their instructors during their instrument training in a non FIKI a/c, and who now think it is fine to practice it with their current students, think about all the instructors who thought the same and didn't make it back alive. Why is the risk worth it? How bout we save the ice training for a/c that are equipped to handle it.

 

[Malko]

There you go again.
You are talking from what you've read rather than what you've experienced.
Seems to be a pattern with you.

In case you are wondering, I don't fly VFR 135, well I do, but I'm also allowed to fly IFR, with Pax in a commuter operation. If you know anything at all about the FARs, please tell the forum how that differentiates me from you.



I have several hours in the last few months that haven't contributed to an NTSB report. It's amazing that commerce seems to happen despite the likes of you.

It's amazing that you're not a statistic yet.

It amazes me as welll to no end. However I have several thousand hours in which to draw experience from. Outside of banner towing an VFR 135.

op:

I love being told what I've experienced in an airplane. Just throwing it out there.

Well, you seem to love to tell the whole Jetcareers forum what you eat for breakfast; we as a membership know what depths of experience you draw from.

However, between the banter we have given this forum over the past several months, you have no clue what I experience I have. You seem to equate it as similar to yours for some reason. Far from the truth my son.

Why don't you enlighten us with your qualifications?

I did. I baited you, but you failed.

I've also stated that I have several thousand hours. While I do not have 10,000, I do have more than you, to include:

Taxing, takeoff and landing in snow.

In addition to accumulating ice on my wings in both FIKI and non-FIKI aircraft.

In addition to Actual Instrument hours looking outside my cockpit (not somebody else's ie. captains) into the abyss of a cloud.

In addition to Night VFR, with zero ground reference, (might as well be IMC)

In addition to Night circling.

In addition to Approaches in IMC.

However, you do have more time as a CFI and a flight Attendant that I do. I will concede that.

Now that we know who has a bigger pecker, either play nice in the sandbox or take it to the pm function.

 

[elmetal]

I did. I baited you, but you failed.

I've also stated that I have several thousand hours. While I do not have 10,000, I do have more than you, to include:

Taxing, takeoff and landing in snow.

In addition to accumulating ice on my wings in both FIKI and non-FIKI aircraft.

In addition to Actual Instrument hours looking outside my cockpit (not somebody else's ie. captains) into the abyss of a cloud.

In addition to Night VFR, with zero ground reference, (might as well be IMC)

In addition to Night circling.

In addition to Approaches in IMC.

However, you do have more time as a CFI and a flight Attendant that I do. I will concede that.

I'll come in to just kindly state that you are an absolute piece of work

 

[BrewMaster]

Ayork,

Your training is for you. Nobody can tell you what to do and how to do it except your instructor. You don't know anybody on this board, what they are like, how they fly, etc. While a lot of the guys posting in this thread may have a lot of experience, they don't know you or your instructor or your aircraft, and probably don't know much about the Omaha area/airports/wx patterns/etc.

I will say the recommendation to purposely go hold in ice then land is not smart. While I've had bits of build up in a non-FIKI plane, I would not take a student up to "show" them. I'm sure at some point in their career they will get a lesson. I will admit that you won't just immediately fall out of the sky, but it could start to build up at a rate much faster than you or the plane can handle. Your overall approach to ice should be to avoid it entirely until you get into an approved FIKI airplane in the future and get the proper training.

You said you are 16 years old, and you're on an aviation forum talking about icing in an airplane and wanting to fly actual. Most kids your age can barely drive a car. You haven't done anything wrong, and I'm not calling you out. All I want to say is take your time...... With your age and time, my guess is you will have a long and fruitful career. Take your time, do it the right way, and the experience and time you want will fall into place much sooner for you than it did for a lot of people.

 

[Fly_Unity]

There are quite a few icing accidents every year up here in the Rockies. One thing I noticed, is that almost every one of them are people from back east, usually limited in experience. But Its VERY rare I (if ever) hear of an accident from ice that thats a Wyoming or MT Instructor even though its a common for Instructors to go IMC below freezing.

Its the guys that never been in ice before that are crashing. Like I said in a previous thread that I try and get my students IMC time (Always below freezing here) and they seem to have more respect for icing than than the guys who have never been in it.

Im not saying we should look for ice. We should ALWAYS be able to get out of it. If were on a Victor way and there is a layer way above MEA I will show students what IMC looks like for a few mins. If we start seeing a trace, descend back below it.

 

[dustoff17]

I'm in awe of the number of pilots here that not only admit to but brag about exceeding aircraft limitations. If you're an instructor and you're doing this: shame on you!

Also I'm amazed at the number of incorrect references to VFR vs. VMC and IFR vs. IMC. You can fly VFR in VMC, IFR in IMC, IFR in VMC and VFR in IMC and not break a single regulation............

However, if you're not doing it right, you can break a ton of regulations in all the above situations...................

 

[Boris Badenov]

Eh. Nothing wrong with learning what you're doing under the hood, esp. as mentioned above when there's almost certainly ice in the clouds. That said, if it were me, I'd want to have a fair number of approaches to minimums under my belt before I went out there and tried it for myself. Remember, when you get around to being employed, there are no "personal minimums"...if it's legal, you're expected to go try it. I got in IMC every chance I got during my training, and probably had 3 or 4 hours and 5ish approaches under my belt. I rectified this by spending the "time building" from IR to Commercial renting a reasonably well equipped 177B and traveling in all weathers rather than watching the air go by.

As for your particular situation, it may be that your instructor is showing good judgment not getting in the clouds this time of year up there on the frozen tundra...I couldn't comment without knowing the specific conditions in every instance. That said, a competent II shouldn't be afraid to shoot approaches in legal weather (they're supposed to be able to teach you how, after all), and 2500ft seems totally absurd as a "hard minimum". Nothing against young instructors (I was one once), but have you considered shopping around for a salty dog who has done all of this stuff a whole lot?

 

[elmetal]

Eh. Nothing wrong with learning what you're doing under the hood, esp. as mentioned above when there's almost certainly ice in the clouds. That said, if it were me, I'd want to have a fair number of approaches to minimums under my belt before I went out there and tried it for myself. Remember, when you get around to being employed, there are no "personal minimums"...if it's legal, you're expected to go try it. I got in IMC every chance I got during my training, and probably had 3 or 4 hours and 5ish approaches under my belt. I rectified this by spending the "time building" from IR to Commercial renting a reasonably well equipped 177B and traveling in all weathers rather than watching the air go by.

As for your particular situation, it may be that your instructor is showing good judgment not getting in the clouds this time of year up there on the frozen tundra...I couldn't comment without knowing the specific conditions in every instance. That said, a competent II shouldn't be afraid to shoot approaches in legal weather (they're supposed to be able to teach you how, after all), and 2500ft seems totally absurd as a "hard minimum". Nothing against young instructors (I was one once), but have you considered shopping around for a salty dog who has done all of this stuff a whole lot?

Honestly, 2500 feet as minimums doesn't even require an instrument approach. I'm with you Boris, the OP needs to find a guy who isn't afraid to teach what breaking out at or near minimums is all about. Afterall, you will absolutely find yourself in that situation at some point. Or hell, you might find yourself in a situation where you just DON'T break out and then you have to fly the published missed... Some instructors don't even teach that, they just have you fly the VFR missed and get vectored around by approach.

If he has a 2500 feet minimum, there's a big chance this instructor isn't even comfortable in actual, so you should probably not be learning anything related to actual from him.

With that said, maybe the guy is experienced in that region of the country and maybe he's found that the icing layer has certain aspects when the ceiling is 2500+ or maybe he's always experienced ice in IMC in that area. Who knows.

I would just give a shoutout to another II in the area and see what they feel should be done. In that situation icing is the only thing that would worry me.

hope I didn't spark too many fires, I was just trying to give my opinion without getting people riled up

 

[Ayork62493]

He's definetly not a young dude. He's extremely experienced, was an instructor flying T-38s in the Air force, has about 14,000 hours total. In a lot of different aircraft.
From what I've read here, I think he experienced somthing in one of these planes that he never wants to experience again.