IMC in the winter.

[Douglas]

Hi all,
I'm currently working on my instrument rating in Omaha, Nebraska. I'm planning on taking my checkride for my IR in early May. I do however have one concern, I've been in IMC once with my previous instructor and I thought it was one of the coolest things in the world. It was very short lived, so it wasn't logged. My previous instructor left town and my new instructor plans on having me get my instrument rating with all simulated instrument time. I do NOT want that, Sim isnmt. is nothing like the real thing in my opinion and I want to have experience before I can legally endanger my life in the clouds. I know a few instrument rated pilot's who actually fear clouds, I do not fear them but my instructor dosn't seem to want to go through them. Granted, it's winter I know it's cold out, and I know iceing is a potential hazard. But I know people who go up in single pistons in the winter for Instrument training. I've read as much as I can online, but I wanted to know your opinions. Any day it's broken or overcast he won't go up in the winter, once the time overcast was reported as 400 feet think. From what I know this is good practice for shooting approaches... Which is what I want?
What do you guys think?

Edit:
He won't go up when the ceilings are less then 2500, which is rare in the winter.

Are you still at the school I taught at? PM me the instructor.
When i first start reading your post, I was worried that one of our new instructors doesn't like IMC.
But in reality...this is Omaha. You can expect to stay out of the clouds over the winter. If you want to do your entire instrument over the winter in Omaha, you can expect to do it under foggles. If you want to IMC, you will have to wait until spring. There is no way around this. You can talk to Brendan Z about this. He had a put up with a lot of winter cancellations during his training while I was teaching him instruments over the winter.

A 400 feet thick layers are not especially "good" for shooting approaches. Heck, when I was instructing there, I didn't even have my students mess with their foggles for a layer like that. I want them focusing on the approach.

The instructor won't send you on a solo night cross country because of temperature?
I can't fit how this makes sense.
If you are still at my old place, our school cold weather procedure stops flying at -18 Celsius.
More than likely, he just didn't want to endorse you for a night solo x-c.
If a student wanted a night solo x-c endorsement from me, he would have needed to be really good salesmen.

 

[dustoff17]

Just out of curiosity, how come you took your rides with the FSDO? I thought many of them barely had the time to do CFI initials let alone other checkrides.

Bad luck of the draw. Both times I was ready for the checkride at the same time a new FAA examiner was in training. I flew with two FAA guys for both rides. I figured living close to Oklahoma City was a factor but my multi was in KY...

For the instrument evaluation, the weather was really low the day of the scheduled ride. I called prior to our meet time and told the examiner that the weather was below my personal minimums for the planned flight. He told me that it was too low for him and that he was going to cancel too. He also said he appreciated the call and my decision. The ride was relatively easy and I think that fact that I canceled played a part in that....not sure though.

 

[Douglas]

And make sure your instructor has more than XXX hours actual time (arbitrary number) - I don't think someone that has only flown under the hood can teach you effectively about weather decisions.

I'm sorry but this is malarke. Having an istructor that has flown 10 hours or 100 hours of IMC won't amount to a hill of beans for his instrument training. He'll miss war stories around the instructors desk but that will be it.

Mine was IMC with an MD-80 reporting moderate to severe wind shear in front of us.
...
Be prepared to fly in whatever weather you think is safe. But more importantly - you should be comfortable with whatever weather you are likely to fly in anyway. Seriously! I somehow manage to be flying when we are at minimums fairly often in Florida -not easy to do. If most of my instrument training hadn't been in actual, I would probably be dead now. And even with most of my instrument time being actual, I still have a lot of brown underwear.

Find a CFI-I that will call you when there is safe IMC. It is worth every dime at this point. Knowing how to scud run, dodge CBs, shoot approaches in the soup, etc - you really need to see that with your own eyes - not from a book.

How to put it more clearly - you can not fly in bad weather without experience doing so. And the only way that will happen is flying with a Captain or CFI that knows it already. This is from someone that has tested their "personal minimums" the hard way, and grew up flying in that crap.

Your what-rating was in IMC?
For the legality of the ride, I hope it wasn't your initial.

I don't know what your background is. Are you an instructor? Currently instructing?

----

Be prepared to fly in whatever weather you think is safe. But more importantly - you should be comfortable with whatever weather you are likely to fly in anyway. Seriously!

I couldn't agree more to this statement. This is important. But don't forget that this thread is about flying in IMC in Nebraska in the winter...he should almost never do that.

 

[Okstate Pilot]

Hi all,
Any day it's broken or overcast he won't go up in the winter, once the time overcast was reported as 400 feet think. From what I know this is good practice for shooting approaches... Which is what I want?
What do you guys think?

Edit:
He won't go up when the ceilings are less then 2500, which is rare in the winter.

In my opinion 400' overcast with a instrument student is too low. Then add on top that it is winter in Nebraska and your flying in a single engine trainer is dumb. My absolute lowest weather to do training with a student is 600' and nothing below freezing in visible moisture. The 600' rule is also for students that are pretty good, otherwise 1000'. To me it does not benefit the student enough run the risk. Plus I don't want them shooting a couple ILS's down to minimums with me during training and they base their personal minimums on that. I always am very conservative around students when it comes to minimums hoping that they maybe think, hey this guy has a couple thousand hours and his minimums are 600', maybe I should rethink my minimums. Don't be in too much of a hurry to get in the low stuff. Besides you will have the rest of your flying career to fly in the clouds.

 

[Nark]

You and I differ as far as teaching is concerned.
I would allow my students to progress in their decision making ability. I don't want to produce a sissy-fair weather flier, but one that is able to make a sound decision. Some students I'd allow to push the learning curve to my standards (minimums ie wx) others I'd reign in on a tight leash.
Cookie cutter CFIing doesn't work.

This person needs to get into the clouds during training. Learning to fly in actual after you have the ticket is a dangerous game.

 

[Ayork62493]

In my opinion 400' overcast with a instrument student is too low. Then add on top that it is winter in Nebraska and your flying in a single engine trainer is dumb. My absolute lowest weather to do training with a student is 600' and nothing below freezing in visible moisture. The 600' rule is also for students that are pretty good, otherwise 1000'. To me it does not benefit the student enough run the risk. Plus I don't want them shooting a couple ILS's down to minimums with me during training and they base their personal minimums on that. I always am very conservative around students when it comes to minimums hoping that they maybe think, hey this guy has a couple thousand hours and his minimums are 600', maybe I should rethink my minimums. Don't be in too much of a hurry to get in the low stuff. Besides you will have the rest of your flying career to fly in the clouds.

Why? If a student is proficient enough why keep hold them back... especially if they plan to make a career out of flying.

Anyways,
Figures the day after I post I get some actual IMC experience.
My previous instructor who moved away for about a year comes back every two weeks or so and I always prefere to fly with him over my new temporary instructor.
Weather sucked this morning, I ended pushing my flight back to about noon and the weather wasn't great but it wasn't terrible either. No reports of iceing, so we decided to go fly.

I had originally planned to fly from OMA-STJ-SDA-CBF-OMA. However, while down there we decided to hold at an NDB and I planned out a new flight from STJ-BIE-OMA.
I ended up knocking out the long instrument cross country. Fly the ILS into STJ, GPS into BIE, and then a no gryo localizer approach for 14L into OMA.
We were chasing the clouds all day looking for some IMC, but they always seemed to clear out right before the airport even though we were over them the entire time enroute.

Coming back into Omaha, by this time it was night and I was shooting the no gyro approach. Weather was reported as Overcast at 800 feet. Flew it relatively well, and breaking out of the clouds and seeing all of the city lights to this day has been the coolest thing I've seen flying. I ended up logging 3.5 sim instrument, .2 actual and .3 night.

First cross country under IFR rules:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N698FL

 

[Douglas]

Cool.

Did you shoot that ILS off the arc in STJ?

If you don't shoot one in training, you should head back down to STJ and get a LOC BC under your belt too!

 

[hambone]

Hi all,
I'm currently working on my instrument rating in Omaha, Nebraska. I'm planning on taking my checkride for my IR in early May. I do however have one concern, I've been in IMC once with my previous instructor and I thought it was one of the coolest things in the world. It was very short lived, so it wasn't logged. My previous instructor left town and my new instructor plans on having me get my instrument rating with all simulated instrument time. I do NOT want that, Sim isnmt. is nothing like the real thing in my opinion and I want to have experience before I can legally endanger my life in the clouds. I know a few instrument rated pilot's who actually fear clouds, I do not fear them but my instructor dosn't seem to want to go through them. Granted, it's winter I know it's cold out, and I know iceing is a potential hazard. But I know people who go up in single pistons in the winter for Instrument training. I've read as much as I can online, but I wanted to know your opinions. Any day it's broken or overcast he won't go up in the winter, once the time overcast was reported as 400 feet think. From what I know this is good practice for shooting approaches... Which is what I want?
What do you guys think?


Edit:
He won't go up when the ceilings are less then 2500, which is rare in the winter.

Homie, I think you need to give your instructor a break. He's teaching you, and if he doesn't want to risk getting icing whilst doing that, I'd say you should be happy to have him rather than an instructor to be gung ho about flying into clouds where ice is likely to exist. I recently flew through some in a non-icing equipped aircraft. Read the post and the replies to it through my profile, and then rethink your position on your instructor.

 

[Ayork62493]

Cool.

Did you shoot that ILS off the arc in STJ?

If you don't shoot one in training, you should head back down to STJ and get a LOC BC under your belt too!

We didn't fly the arc because we didn't want to spend that much time there down, it's a fairly good size arc off the VOR.
I'll probably just head out to GRI for a LOC BC, all depends on the situation I soppose.

Homie, I think you need to give your instructor a break. He's teaching you, and if he doesn't want to risk getting icing whilst doing that, I'd say you should be happy to have him rather than an instructor to be gung ho about flying into clouds where ice is likely to exist. I recently flew through some in a non-icing equipped aircraft. Read the post and the replies to it through my profile, and then rethink your position on your instructor.

In no way am I disapointed with my instructor, I spent a lot of time and money attempting to find a new one.
The point of the post was just to get opinions from other people who have experienced this. I know there are plenty of CFI's out there, you being one of them who has a lot more experience than I do. People's opinions vary and I just wanted some more information on the subject.

 

[sfgiants13]

This person needs to get into the clouds during training. Learning to fly in actual after you have the ticket is a dangerous game.

I agree here. I did my instrument training in central CA in the dead summer where you won't see a cloud for 6 months at a time. But, my instructor did take me out to the coast a few times for some actual and it really is completely different. My first time in actual I actually became completely fixated on the ILS and didn't keep scanning and ended up in a pretty steep bank before my instructor took over. I didn't have much actual IMC experience once I got my rating, so I didn't go off flying down to minimums right away. I purposly flew flights where there were thin layers just to gain experience. I also did a few dual IMC flights to get my confidence up and now (a year later) I feel comfortable flying in actual IMC down close to minimums. Now that I'm in Seattle, winters are a problem with ice for sure. Unless I'm flying locally at low altitudes it's almost impossible on a lot of days to avoid ice so I end up not being able to fly.

 

[IslandFlyer]

I just looked at my log, I had 10 hours of actual for my instrument training and I'm glad I did...it was a great learning experience. My notes say we picked up some light ice a couple times as well as some carb ice. Not something I would've wanted to see for the first time flying alone and in fact when I went to my club for the IFR checkout, we did the ride in IMC (3.2 hours hand flown in the DC ADIZ area = smoker) and also got some carb and structural ice...the instructor had come up from Florida and it was his first encounter with both in over 300 CFII hours.

I would ditch an instructor who had a blanket policy of no flying in less than 2500 feet or no IMC in the winter. One of the reasons humans are in the cockpit is to apply judgment and make decisions based on presented factors, if he can't do that then you will only learn skills from him at the detriment of gaining experience (if that makes sense to anyone but me). When we were in the soup, my instructor would take the plane and let me just look around...see what ice looks like on the gear for example. He helped me gain an understanding of the differences in the two environments beyond looking at the dash board. As the saying goes, a picture is worth 1000 words.

Talk to your instructor and try to make it work...even if you are just practicing holds over the field until you start to accumulate, it will be worth it. Obviously, don't do anything that will get you a ride in an ambulance.

Also, the night idea is a good one too...I did about 20 hours of my IFR training at night. If you can find some rural areas without ground lights, its pretty close to IFR.

There you go..........go pick up ice with an aircraft that is not certified to fly into known icing conditions. Great experience!!!

 

[Ayork62493]

There you go..........go pick up ice with an aircraft that is not certified to fly into known icing conditions. Great experience!!!

You have the same attitude as my previous instructor. He says it is experience that you need. However, we would only go if there was a guaranteed way out.

By the way, thanks for all of the information, it's appreciated.

 

[Nark]

I think what he is trying to tell this young up-and-comers is that a trace of won't cause you to drop from the sky.

While ice can be extremely dangerous, in small amounts it can be well managed. There is no need to panic whilst picking up a trace to light rime in a 172 or Cherokee.

 

[jhugz]

I think what he is trying to tell this young up-and-comers is that a trace of won't cause you to drop from the sky.

While ice can be extremely dangerous, in small amounts it can be well managed. There is no need to panic whilst picking up a trace to light rime in a 172 or Cherokee.

Jebus, any amount of ice in a non-fiki airplane should be treated as an emergency situation. Get out of it! Same goes w/ FIKI airplanes, you just don't have to "panic" as much. Though I'm sure you'll tell me how you have more IR time then my TT while flying banners and VFR 135.

Don't loiter in ice, whether you're FIKI or Non-FIKI. Make a quick plan, and execute it. I can show you plenty of NTSB reports of FIKI airplanes loitering in icing.

 

[IslandFlyer]

I think what he is trying to tell this young up-and-comers is that a trace of won't cause you to drop from the sky.

While ice can be extremely dangerous, in small amounts it can be well managed. There is no need to panic whilst picking up a trace to light rime in a 172 or Cherokee.

Sure, don't panic if you pick it up, but don't go out looking for it.

And please don't go hold over the airfield for hours just to show your student that ice wont make the airplane drop out of the sky.

 

[Nark]

Jebus, any amount of ice in a non-fiki airplane should be treated as an emergency situation. Get out of it! Same goes w/ FIKI airplanes, you just don't have to "panic" as much. Though I'm sure you'll tell me how you have more IR time then my TT while flying banners and VFR 135.

There you go again.
You are talking from what you've read rather than what you've experienced.
Seems to be a pattern with you.

In case you are wondering, I don't fly VFR 135, well I do, but I'm also allowed to fly IFR, with Pax in a commuter operation. If you know anything at all about the FARs, please tell the forum how that differentiates me from you.

Don't loiter in ice, whether you're FIKI or Non-FIKI. Make a quick plan, and execute it. I can show you plenty of NTSB reports of FIKI airplanes loitering in icing.

I have several hours in the last few months that haven't contributed to an NTSB report. It's amazing that commerce seems to happen despite the likes of you.

 

[jhugz]

It's amazing that commerce seems to happen despite the likes of you.

It's amazing that you're not a statistic yet.

 

[Nark]

It's amazing that you're not a statistic yet.

It amazes me as welll to no end. However I have several thousand hours in which to draw experience from. Outside of banner towing an VFR 135.

 

[contactground.9]

There you go again.
You are talking from what you've read rather than what you've experienced.
Seems to be a pattern with you.

In case you are wondering, I don't fly VFR 135, well I do, but I'm also allowed to fly IFR, with Pax in a commuter operation. If you know anything at all about the FARs, please tell the forum how that differentiates me from you.



I have several hours in the last few months that haven't contributed to an NTSB report. It's amazing that commerce seems to happen despite the likes of you.

It's amazing that you're not a statistic yet.

op:

 

[jhugz]

I love being told what I've experienced in an airplane. Just throwing it out there.