I'm going to start taking bets....

[Fly4Pay]

Would someone be willing to explain to me what experience instructing beyond 500 hrs in a light single/twin will do to help you pilot a jet/turboprop? Everyone keeps throwing the world experience out but are not backing it up with what experience. I mean should i get in the seminole and go find some thunderstorms to dodge?

This goes back to what JTrain and I were talking about somewhere around page 2 of this thread... Hours is an imperfect way to measure experience, but unfortunately, it's all we have at the moment...

If someone REALLY wants to get themselves ready for an aviation career, the best things they can do are:

1) Fly. Often. In as many different situations as possible. Flying circles around the home 'drone, while comfortable, doesn't push the limits of experience. Go to strange fields. Fly into a Class B. Try some crosswind landings at limits, as we discussed in another thread. Get your ME ticket. Become an instructor. And so on...

2) Read. There's SO much out there today, between print and internet, that you can read to expand your knowledge base. Learn how a radar works, or an FMS (even general info expands your knowledge).

3) Talk. Find people who fly more complex equipment than you and pick their brains. Ask them about the aircraft they fly. Ask them about the lifestyle. Ask them for tips. (And discard about 50% since it's probably crap! ) Networking on JC is a great idea--it's a low-threat area to ask questions. Though some folks come back with derisive answers, for the most part folks here are pretty nice (Rule #5 always applies! Pay it Forward!)

4) LOVE WHAT YOU DO! If you enjoy flying, and it's your passion, then hang onto it like a dog on a bone. If it's just a job, you're gonna hate it--better to be in a job you love than one you just tolerate, trust me.

I think if someone does this, they'll progress very rapidly. They'll find themselves itching to do more, not just fly in circles. AND when they get to a job interview, they'll demonstrate the maturity that the company is looking for.

 

[Seggy]

Would someone be willing to explain to me what experience instructing beyond 500 hrs in a light single/twin will do to help you pilot a jet/turboprop? Everyone keeps throwing the world experience out but are not backing it up with what experience. I mean should i get in the seminole and go find some thunderstorms to dodge? Should I act like my student is part of my crew and practice CRM? Do I need to go practice VMC demo for the 800th time before im "experienced enough" Do I need more knowledge? Weather knowledge? Certainly not systems because a seminole is no where near as complicated as a CRJ, 1900, or ERJ. What was it you wanted to gain through instructing that would have helped you out in a jet or turboprop? Just wondering

Everyone keeps on throwing the fact out that they been there done that and I will realize it when i get more experience. I have great respect for you guys but on this topic i respectfully disagree. I know, I'll figure it out when I get there. But there are countless amounts of pilots from fast track programs that have excelled at the next level and will continue to do so with low time.

Ever hear of the saying...???

You start out with a lot of luck but no experience.
By the time you reach 15,000 hours your luck runs out but you have your experience to get you out of a jam.

Kingairer sums it up. The more 'captain' time you have in the 152, the better prepared you will be to help in the decision making process of a turbine aircraft.

 

[BobDDuck]

Would someone be willing to explain to me what experience instructing beyond 500 hrs in a light single/twin will do to help you pilot a jet/turboprop? <snip>

It won't do too much to help pilot a jet or turboprop. You are still going to be way behind when you first get into a new airplane. It is the same thing as going from a cessna to a light twin. I still remember the look on all of my students faces the first time they pulled the seminole off the ground. It was one of amazement. During the first flight as we were exiting the pattern towards the practice area I used to tell them to look to the left... and then to look to the right. We had ANOTHER engine. Exciting times!

Anyhow, doing your 800th VMC demo isn't going to help you fly an arrival into Atlanta or read a release with an alternate or shoot the perfect ILS in an RJ or turbo prop. But the 801st time you do the VMC demo and your student messes it up and you make the situation right, you will have learned something about how to be a good CA or FO. When you do your 1000th touch and go (err... stop and go) and when you simulate the engine failure and your student doesn't react and YOU have to take over and keep the plane going, you will know in your mind that if a bad thing happens, you are able to deal with it.

I would seriously hope that even as a CFI you are still learning something new every flight. So every flight after the 500 hour mark you should still be learning something. The minute you stop learning, you might as well pack up and go home because you no longer have what it takes to be a pilot.

All of us that instructed for a while (and I was really on the low side of a while) know that it gets frustrating some times. ATP is great for burning out too. Will you not be able to make the transition at 500 hours? No, you'll do fine. Most people of that time do. You will keep on learning as you go and eventually you will get up to speed. But remember, when you are flying passengers around you really should already be up to speed. Still learning yes, but you should be an asset to the crew, not a liability and every hour you instruct moves you more into the asset category.

 

[Rocketman99]

Secondly if you have "significant" trans-oceanic experience, albeit with wrong information, why are you at Colgan?

Hey now, there are some of us in that category at Colgan. I happen to be one of them (the significant trans-oceanic experience part, not the wrong information part )!

We've gone through several pages on this thread on this topic and in other threads. People are often very heated on this issue, but one thing that seems to hold constant is that very few of the "highly experienced" pilots ever back up the position that low time guys should be flying RJs or Saabs or any other type of airliner for that matter. The most vocal opinions seem to come from those sitting with low time who, not to offend but to call a spade a spade, just really don't know what they don't know.

You may be god's gift to flying a plane at 500 or even 250 hrs, but that doesn't automatically make you experienced enough to fly an airliner. It's when situations go wrong and you have to make decision and think outside the box or get into the realm of abnormal procedures that makes this job difficult. You can teach a monkey to fly but you can't teach a money to make decisions and handle emergency situations. THAT'S the time when that 500-hr wonder in the right seat often becomes a liability instead of an asset. More often than not, opportunities liek that come after flying for a long time and building a lot of hours.

No, there is no way to quantify this mythical beat of experience, it just builds as your flight time builds. Now, having a ton of hours doesn't mean you're gonna be an asset in an abnormal situation either (been there, done that, got the safety award), but more often than not it does. Since we presently have no better way of quantifying the experience levels though, we have to use what we do have (as several others wiser than me have already said in this thread). It kinda reminds me of that discussion we had a while back of whether a seniority based system is the most effective. It's not perfect, but it works.

 

[Ian_J]

Would someone be willing to explain to me what experience instructing beyond 500 hrs in a light single/twin will do to help you pilot a jet/turboprop? Everyone keeps throwing the world experience out but are not backing it up with what experience. I mean should i get in the seminole and go find some thunderstorms to dodge? Should I act like my student is part of my crew and practice CRM? Do I need to go practice VMC demo for the 800th time before im "experienced enough" Do I need more knowledge? Weather knowledge? Certainly not systems because a seminole is no where near as complicated as a CRJ, 1900, or ERJ. What was it you wanted to gain through instructing that would have helped you out in a jet or turboprop? Just wondering

Everyone keeps on throwing the fact out that they been there done that and I will realize it when i get more experience. I have great respect for you guys but on this topic i respectfully disagree. I know, I'll figure it out when I get there. But there are countless amounts of pilots from fast track programs that have excelled at the next level and will continue to do so with low time.

I suggest you read this thread:

http://jetcareers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43041

It's about a CFI who is learning a heck of a lot about what it means to be a "Captain."

This is the type of experience people are referring to.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Hey now, there are some of us in that category at Colgan. I happen to be one of them (the significant trans-oceanic experience part, not the wrong information part )!

I knew I needed to make an exception, but his lack of knowledge about the tracks and ETOPS was frankly embarassing.

I'll admit I have never flown an airplane across the big drink, but I have been in the weather room a couple of times while crews have beem planing their journey, and a few discussions with someone that has been doing the crossing for the past 7 years about operations and procedures, and I knew more about it than he did.

I hope there was no hard feelings between us with that comment by me

 

[Rocketman99]

None at all, just giving ya a hard time.

 

[AmazingPilot]

How many ways do you need me to explain this?

A 767 flew across the pond without the autopilot on, because something would not function properly. End of story, let's go home and eat crackers.

Secondly if you have "significant" trans-oceanic experience, albeit with wrong information, why are you at Colgan?

Third, If you are indeed at Colgan, why do you have a NWairlink Saab in your avatar?

The debate was whether a triple-redundent system, such as an autopilot, would fail each one individually. I say no, not without some outlying influence. My point is that you cannot just decide to just hand fly across the Atlantic.

 

[AmazingPilot]

Ever hear of the saying...???

You start out with a lot of luck but no experience.
By the time you reach 15,000 hours your luck runs out but you have your experience to get you out of a jam.

Kingairer sums it up. The more 'captain' time you have in the 152, the better prepared you will be to help in the decision making process of a turbine aircraft.

That means alot coming from a Beech FO, hardly anywhere near 15,000 hours.
Do you ever get sick of talking down to people???

 

[AmazingPilot]

I knew I needed to make an exception, but his lack of knowledge about the tracks and ETOPS was frankly embarassing.

I'll admit I have never flown an airplane across the big drink, but I have been in the weather room a couple of times while crews have beem planing their journey, and a few discussions with someone that has been doing the crossing for the past 7 years about operations and procedures, and I knew more about it than he did.

Okay now you definetly must be kidding, right????
Please say that you, are. I thought you were a pilot that flew across the Atlantic on a regular basis.
If this is not a joke then let me give this little pointer, young man...
There is a big difference between what you read in a book or off of a release, then their is when you actually have to fly under your so-called hypothetical circumstances. Being in a weather room a couple times while real flight crews discuss their journey does not qualify.
Hence your entire point about expierence makes your hypocritical point.
Stick to topics that are within your flying expierence.

 

[Seggy]

That means alot coming from a Beech FO, hardly anywhere near 15,000 hours.
Do you ever get sick of talking down to people???

Ahhh, that saying was told to me day one, hour one of flight training. I was not talking anyone down dude. I was just giving a little anecdotal aviation saying. Do you know what anecdotal means?

Look at response 188 and 200.

Oh, yes I am Beech FO.

What proof though is there of who you are?

 

[Stone Cold]

That means alot coming from a Beech FO, hardly anywhere near 15,000 hours.
Do you ever get sick of talking down to people???

How does it feel to be under 50 posts and have alienated yourself from approximately 90% of the JC regulars, and probably even lurkers??? Do you feel special now? Seggy started that quote with "Ever hear of the saying", and then told the saying. It's been said before by people with no time even, how dare they!!!

Seriously, as posted before, why do you have a Mesaba airplane as an avatar. Also, you call Seggy out by saying you "...find him very cocky and arrogent..." about the low time opinions, and say you are "... a very warm person so I hope people don't take my comments to heart." Yet your name is one of the most arrogant names on here. Then you come back with this stuff...make up your mind, do you want to fit in, or keep on with your ways???

Just curious...

 

[AmazingPilot]

Ahhh, that saying was told to me day one, hour one of flight training. I was not talking anyone down dude. I was just giving a little anecdotal aviation saying. Do you know what anecdotal means?

Look at response 188.

The fact you cannot idenitfy with your arrogance makes you all the more arrogant.
I'll admit my faults, I'm argumentative.
I don't allow that side of me to blur or skew my perspective in life, but I do defend my points when I feel the need to.
I have seen many parts of this industry from various different perspectives, and the one thing I can tell you is that the dedication and will of a pilot is one of the strongest forces I've witnessed in my life.
Flight hours don't account for this, and I will defend any and all 500 hour pilots that you are claiming to bet against as being the next one to put a "smoking hole in the ground".

 

[I_Money]

Guys just to let you know - if any fighting back and fourth goes down on this thread, we will close it.

 

[Ian_J]

That means alot coming from a Beech FO, hardly anywhere near 15,000 hours.
Do you ever get sick of talking down to people???

This is unbelievable.

I'll reiterate what a bunch of people have already said.

Seggy HELPS people around here. He has for years. He was not talking down to anyone. I'm telling you, anyone who knows this guy likes him.

Why did you join JC? I happen to really like the community here and don't want to see it ruined. Your posts are making this place worse, not better. Please try and understand that.

Please read this thread, as I've made this point already. http://forums.jetcareers.com/showthread.php?t=43029

 

[Ian_J]

Guys just to let you know - if any fighting back and fourth goes down on this thread, we will close it.

It ain't the thread that's the problem, Iain.

 

[Kristie]

Third, If you are indeed at Colgan, why do you have a NWairlink Saab in your avatar?

sorry buddy... but the type of avatar people use shouldn't make a difference in anything. it's a picture, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Kingairer]

sorry buddy... but the type of avatar people use shouldn't make a difference in anything. it's a picture, nothing more, nothing less.

HUH????

 

[Stone Cold]

sorry buddy... but the type of avatar people use shouldn't make a difference in anything. it's a picture, nothing more, nothing less.

Normally, Kristie, I'd agree...however, a guy at Colgan, who was just bought out by Pinnacle, would not normally have a "competitor's" airplane as an avatar. They are all (quite possibly) being used against each other, and somebody is going to put that as an avatar? I don't even have my dream company as an avatar, due to the fact that somebody at my current company may see it and know my future plans. How would it look for somebody at a "small family company" like Colgan to have basically a competitor for NWA's business as his "online persona"?

 

[AmazingPilot]

I personally enjoy a little frienly debate, and have no quarrels about keeping my respects for the people on here and the JC community.
Things in this line of business are not always cotton-dry, and if people here are going to make sensationalist claims or comments I do feel they are opening themselves up to debate.
I am more than willing to discuss my points and perspectives, I thought thats what this community is all about.