I'm going to start taking bets....
- Thread starter Seggy
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Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I heard of a captain that has been handing out applications to fast food joints because must of the FO's he's flown with question every move they make.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Damn seggs!
You like to stir up the.......
Seriously, if your scared of regional pilots here in the states, dont go flyin Kingfisher or Air India! Those Airbus pilots have about 253 hours in the right seat. You couldnt pay me enough to fly on those airlines!
If you do, just tap the FO on the shoulder and say "I'll take it from here guys." :rawk:
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
I can neither confirm nor deny but SKYW was recently at a flight school in Phoenix meeting with them about a "program" and it was NOT ATP.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Damn seggs!
You like to stir up the.......
Seriously, if your scared of regional pilots here in the states, dont go flyin Kingfisher or Air India! Those Airbus pilots have about 253 hours in the right seat. You couldnt pay me enough to fly on those airlines!
It is insulting to the piloting profession with the minimums that some companies have.
My thread was in response to the TSA new mins. Regionals are going to be undercutting each other to get the lowest time pilots!
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
It's not just Kingfisher.
MANY foreign countries have 'ab-initio' pilots that the airline hires and trains them, and most end up as F/Os on singlebody or widebodies. Emirates and Gulf Air are examples of taking ab initio pilots, and putting them in big jets with 300 hours or so.
I know one Gulf Air ab initio pilot who started on the A320 with just 210 hours total time. Right seat, yes, the F/O. But that's how it works in some parts of the world. He's since now gotten around 2000 hours, most in the A320.
However, it is worthy to mention that some other airlines will make their abinito pilots sit as cruise pilots for a few years (Cathay and Dragon Air do this), before they become F/Os.
MANY foreign countries have 'ab-initio' pilots that the airline hires and trains them, and most end up as F/Os on singlebody or widebodies. Emirates and Gulf Air are examples of taking ab initio pilots, and putting them in big jets with 300 hours or so.
I know one Gulf Air ab initio pilot who started on the A320 with just 210 hours total time. Right seat, yes, the F/O. But that's how it works in some parts of the world. He's since now gotten around 2000 hours, most in the A320.
However, it is worthy to mention that some other airlines will make their abinito pilots sit as cruise pilots for a few years (Cathay and Dragon Air do this), before they become F/Os.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
In the JAA Ab-initio programs there are about 30 written exams that need to be taken.
There is basically no GA in Europe. Would they bring these ab-initio programs to the states? Who would run it? The majors would still be getting enough qualified applicants. Would that leave the regionals to run these ab-initio programs?
These ab-initio programs have cause the death of GA in Europe. Maybe the regionals should pump money into local FBOs, recruit pilots, have them instruct, fly traffic watch, pipeline patrol, fly freight, build time and then bring them onto a carrier.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
lol. Doubt they will pump money into anything they don't see as necessary. They think very short-term.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Seggy, while I get your intent with the topic of this thread. As SteveC might say,it's bad juju to be betting on the death of 50 innocent pax and crew, due to a companies effort to find a new form of indentured servitude!
Goonie
Never say die
The problem with that plan is instructing, traffic watch, pipeline, and frieght all pay more than the regionals! You would actually get a pay decrease with your promotion.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
You are right.
It might be bad juju and DO NOT want to see ANYONE die in any accidents.
However, shouldn't the companies start being held to a higher standard? These companies are there to take people from point a to b. If they cut corners to staff their planes with someone who fogs a mirror, then when is the line drawn?
When people die.
It is inevitable.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Yes to everything that you said about the companies hiring and training decsions. But it is bad juju for you as a human to take bets on the death and misfortune of a fellow human being, and their families anguish. And unprofessional I'd say as an airline pilot.
Love ya bro, but just callin it as I see it!
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
This is cyclical. When airplanes fall out of the sky, the FAA will make more regs.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Yes to everything that you said about the companies hiring and training decsions. But it is bad juju for you as a human to take bets on the death and misfortune of a fellow human being, and their families anguish. And unprofessional I'd say as an airline pilot.
Love ya bro, but just callin it as I see it!
Max, NO WAY would I take bets. Just a figure of speech. I am fed up with this lowering of the bar in the profession. Stuff rolls up hill in this industry.
It starts with the lowering of hours for a guy going for his first regional job. It is a domino effect up to the Delta 777 Captain.
The bar has to be raised. We can not settle for anything than the best people flying planes over our heads!
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Duh, train. But the title I feel is still distasteful!
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Have you looked into JAA training standards?
You better before you start spouting off BS.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
Seggy is right. I will tell you right now that on our current path in this industry, we will see a regional airliner crash in the somewhat near future. It is inevitable. I will also tell you it will not be related to weather, maintenance, or anything similar. It will be related to one thing: The actions or inactions of the pilots in relation to situations that occur on the line daily.
As it stands right now, flight schools across the country are doing a poor job of preparing pilot applicants for the demands that they will face as professional airline pilots (or in any other professional flying capacity). This is compounded by the fact that regional minimums are lower than they ever were before, so poor training will not be corrected or masked by experience. The experience that these pilots gain will be in the cockpit of a complex regional jet aircraft, carrying anywhere from 50 to 100 customers in the back. If the pilot does not have the right attitude to learn, they will sit and be a "gear puller" until their seniority number comes up and they can move into the left seat. They now have the burden of command. That fourth stripe is a heavy one.
We are finding situations now where pilots in the left seat of regional jet aircraft are the same ones who were the 500 hour new-hires of two to five years ago. I should know: I am one of them. If they were not preparing for the move into the position of command, then they are also not prepared to mentor the new 300-600 hour pilot who is sitting next to them. The cycle continues.
There is good news, however. We can change this. It must be started at the most basic level, when the student pilot takes their first flying lesson. We need to be advocating for a more professional and dedicated approach to flight training, so that these pilots learn and are prepared for the challenges ahead. No more "getting by," or Gleim books and 80% pass rates. You can't compare the US pilots to Euro pilots in relation to the low time hiring minimums, because the methods of our training are completely different. Our pilots may know how to fly, but when it comes to systems operational knowledge that is applied in conjunction with manually handling a larger, aerodynamically different aircraft, we are lacking. This needs to be changed.
If you don't want to see a regional aircraft, or an aircraft of any type carrying innocent passengers, become an accident statistic, then we all need to work together to improve our methods of training and learning across the board. I have said it before, and I will say it again: The quantity of flight time does not matter as much as the quality of flight time in developing a well-rounded professional pilot.
As it stands right now, flight schools across the country are doing a poor job of preparing pilot applicants for the demands that they will face as professional airline pilots (or in any other professional flying capacity). This is compounded by the fact that regional minimums are lower than they ever were before, so poor training will not be corrected or masked by experience. The experience that these pilots gain will be in the cockpit of a complex regional jet aircraft, carrying anywhere from 50 to 100 customers in the back. If the pilot does not have the right attitude to learn, they will sit and be a "gear puller" until their seniority number comes up and they can move into the left seat. They now have the burden of command. That fourth stripe is a heavy one.
We are finding situations now where pilots in the left seat of regional jet aircraft are the same ones who were the 500 hour new-hires of two to five years ago. I should know: I am one of them. If they were not preparing for the move into the position of command, then they are also not prepared to mentor the new 300-600 hour pilot who is sitting next to them. The cycle continues.
There is good news, however. We can change this. It must be started at the most basic level, when the student pilot takes their first flying lesson. We need to be advocating for a more professional and dedicated approach to flight training, so that these pilots learn and are prepared for the challenges ahead. No more "getting by," or Gleim books and 80% pass rates. You can't compare the US pilots to Euro pilots in relation to the low time hiring minimums, because the methods of our training are completely different. Our pilots may know how to fly, but when it comes to systems operational knowledge that is applied in conjunction with manually handling a larger, aerodynamically different aircraft, we are lacking. This needs to be changed.
If you don't want to see a regional aircraft, or an aircraft of any type carrying innocent passengers, become an accident statistic, then we all need to work together to improve our methods of training and learning across the board. I have said it before, and I will say it again: The quantity of flight time does not matter as much as the quality of flight time in developing a well-rounded professional pilot.
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