ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
very true
Ice - Wimpy or Wise?
- Thread starter PICPaul
- Start date
very true
pilotben1986
New Member
When I was living in Galena (at the resident school) I watched a C150 take off rnwy 7 departing to the east, (to fairbanks I presume) and upon take off the plane made it a couple hundred feet in the air and then just nose dived into the remaining runway. yup you guesed it, was ice, or could have been frost that wasnt brushed off either way lift was lost and he nosed into the ground. I was just learning to fly then so thats why I was out on the ramp watching this plane take off. I remember we all ran to the plane...omg! it was bad, really bad
didnt stop me from flying but i did learn a leason from there mistake. I have had my fair share of iceing but not without doing somehting about it. either turn on the anti ice (BEFORE ENTERING CLOUDS) or remember go lower and turn around. but for you alaska flyers dont forget this state is horrible for those darn inversions. take that into consideration
you might want to climb for warmer???
getting to my point, you and I live in alaska and this is something we have to deal with the majority of the year. dont let iceing stop you from flying otherwise living here you never will. just be on top of it, get your weather updates, please please please give pireps.
didnt stop me from flying but i did learn a leason from there mistake. I have had my fair share of iceing but not without doing somehting about it. either turn on the anti ice (BEFORE ENTERING CLOUDS) or remember go lower and turn around. but for you alaska flyers dont forget this state is horrible for those darn inversions. take that into consideration
you might want to climb for warmer???
getting to my point, you and I live in alaska and this is something we have to deal with the majority of the year. dont let iceing stop you from flying otherwise living here you never will. just be on top of it, get your weather updates, please please please give pireps.
Acadia
Well-Known Member
I will second that thought, and good call on not flying with that crud on your wings.
B767Driver
New Member
The FAA issued a SAFO a few years ago regarding frost polishing. It says frost can be polished smooth...but ONLY in conjunction with the manufacturers' approved procedures.
As far as I know, no operator issues approved procedures for frost polishing.
So essentially, the practice is illegal.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
exactly my point
Those Duchess windscreens are cheap plastic saran-wrap quality POS's. I had one crack when we turned on the heat shortly after takeoff.
As for the OP - Any time I'm even asking myself "I wonder if I should deice...", I do. Don't second guess yourself.
I deice for safety. If there's frost or ice on the airplane, I want it squirted off. If it's just loose snow I can probably blow it off or get it with a broom, but if it needs sprayed it needs sprayed.
I say good call.
-mini
TGatch
Well-Known Member
The statement wasn't exact but nobody claimed it to be predictable...The excerpt below is what was being referred to.
"Wind tunnel and flight tests indicate that frost, ice, or snow formations having a thickness and surface roughness similar to medium or coarse sandpaper on the leading edge and upper surface of a wing can reduce wing lift by as much as 30% and increase drag by as much as 40%."
pilotben1986
New Member
well regardless frost and ice still do reduce lift. and what do we do to comensate for a loss of lift? We instictively begin to pitch up; bringing us closer and closer to our criticle angle of attack...then BAM! nose in the dirt. assuming low n slow on take off or landing with ice.
you with ICE -->
anic: you after ICE -->:banghead:
you with ICE -->
anic: you after ICE -->:banghead:
PICPaul
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the responses...this is a sweet way to learn when there are not any other pilots around to chew the fat with.
A few of you mentioned the fact that up here we have to deal with this for the majority of the flying season, and now I've got a few more ideas to cogitate over to help me extend that flying time.
One of them is the dark wings. Wish I had the $$ to go with the dark wings, but I'm strapped trying to keep the 150 in the air and still sock away enough for my next series of ratings this spring.
Even with the white wings, all the ice sublimated over the last 12 hours. Temps have not rose above 26 above, but the wind kicked into gear and has been blowing 30G45. All that moving air scoured it right on off for me.
A few of you mentioned the fact that up here we have to deal with this for the majority of the flying season, and now I've got a few more ideas to cogitate over to help me extend that flying time.
One of them is the dark wings. Wish I had the $$ to go with the dark wings, but I'm strapped trying to keep the 150 in the air and still sock away enough for my next series of ratings this spring.
Even with the white wings, all the ice sublimated over the last 12 hours. Temps have not rose above 26 above, but the wind kicked into gear and has been blowing 30G45. All that moving air scoured it right on off for me.
bidderswede
New Member
You made the right choice.
Isn't it better to be on the ground, wishing you were in the air, than being in the air, wishing you were on the ground? (Like your avatar picture).
Isn't it better to be on the ground, wishing you were in the air, than being in the air, wishing you were on the ground? (Like your avatar picture).
PICPaul
Well-Known Member
You made the right choice.
Isn't it better to be on the ground, wishing you were in the air, than being in the air, wishing you were on the ground? (Like your avatar picture).
You bet.
I read this in Machado's Inst Pilot's HB last night.
"It's better to be cautious 100 times than to die once." - Mark Twain
pilotben1986
New Member
PICPaul my best recomendation to you if you want to go cheap buy wing covers if you dont already have them.
yes I know it takes some work to through them on but it is worth it right?
the work you do now will save you from the work you will have to do later.
tell me what you think
yes I know it takes some work to through them on but it is worth it right?
the work you do now will save you from the work you will have to do later.
tell me what you think
pilotben1986
New Member
and since you are flying here. engine covers too.
PICPaul
Well-Known Member
I have a full set of covers from the Eagle River outfit, wing, tail, windshield and insulated engine cover. She does good work.
My big issue here is living right on the ocean, 53j is tied down 1/4 mile from open water, so we don't get the dependable freeze all winter like you do in the Valley. 13 above is our coldest temp recorded ever. Barely feels like AK here at times. Don't spread that around though...really it is pretty nasty here, no one would ever like living here.irate:
My big issue here is living right on the ocean, 53j is tied down 1/4 mile from open water, so we don't get the dependable freeze all winter like you do in the Valley. 13 above is our coldest temp recorded ever. Barely feels like AK here at times. Don't spread that around though...really it is pretty nasty here, no one would ever like living here.
irate:
pilotben1986
New Member
must have some corrosion issues then huh? Well you know what I think you have this whole thing covered. You still having problems with ice even with the covers?
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
Wuss. Just kidding. That's too much ice in anything (for me, and I'm a little past 165TT). Realistically, will you some day take off in something with some ice attached to it? Probably. But not a 150, particularly not with that much. Wise.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
Good call, wise decision.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
You did the right thing. Taking off with ice on the aircraft- any kind of ice, frost, polished frost- is like taking off over gross. Have pilots gotten away with it? Yes. Can you get away with it? Maybe. Is it really worth it? No. Don't care if you are in AK or in the lower 48, flying 91, 135, or 121. Your airplane will perform the same- you are now a test pilot. Unless you are getting paid as a test pilot and a test pilot's wage, is it really worth it? Also, big difference between trying to take off with ice on the airplane and flying into forecast icing.
A case in point in the above is the history of the CL-65 series aircraft. There have been a few fatal crashes where crews tried to take off with polished frost on the wings. Since the crashes were fatal, their results were less than optimal. I'm sure every crew involved had successfully taken off with frost on the wings at some point. Finally, Bombardier and the FAA came out and so no ice or frost on the aircraft prior to take off. Period. Nada. None. Ever. Resulted in a funny situation for me in the summer. We landed in the southeast during the summer. Came down from cold, high altitude into warm moist air. We were met on the ramp by an FAA inspector who was going to ride with us. While we're chatting in the cockpit, the FO comes in and tells me there is frost under the wings from the humid air coming in contact with the super cooled fuel tanks on the underside of the wing. So here it is, 85 degrees out, and I have to call dispatch for a de-ice truck.
Ice bridging. One of the myths that just won't die, but causes crews and passengers to die. The FAA and NASA did not just come out and say, "You know, today we don't think it exists." They did YEARS of testing trying to get it, and could not. What most pilots see and mistake for ice bridging is actually residual ice and intercycle ice.
Not all ice will be cleanly shed during every inflation cycle – some ice will often remain. It frequently takes two, three or more cycles to get rid of it all. Intercycle ice is ice which forms [FONT=NADGKC+TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman][FONT=NADGKC+TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman]between [/FONT][/FONT]activations. Between residual ice and intercycle ice, the wing may never be completely clean while the airplane is in active icing conditions. Many pilots see residual ice and/or intercycle ice and then think that they are seeing ice bridging. This tends to perpetuate the myth.
Some pilots believe they should wait to start inflating the boots until 1/4-1/2 inch of ice. DO NOT DO THIS. Inflate the boots at the first sign of ice. First, ice can drastically effect the aerodynamics of not just the wings, but the tail plane. If you get tail plane icing and a tail plane stall- good luck.
Now, here’s where it gets morbidly interesting. Embraer had revised the aircraft flight manual taking the most recent research into consideration, mandating that the boots be activated at the first sign of icing. But Comair standards pilots were firm believers in the OWT about ice bridging and did not include that provision in its own manual, the one the crew would use for reference. In other words, the crew was just following their company procedure – an incorrect and unsafe procedure, as it turns out, which was contrary to the manufacturer’s instructions.
29 people died in the crash.
A case in point in the above is the history of the CL-65 series aircraft. There have been a few fatal crashes where crews tried to take off with polished frost on the wings. Since the crashes were fatal, their results were less than optimal. I'm sure every crew involved had successfully taken off with frost on the wings at some point. Finally, Bombardier and the FAA came out and so no ice or frost on the aircraft prior to take off. Period. Nada. None. Ever. Resulted in a funny situation for me in the summer. We landed in the southeast during the summer. Came down from cold, high altitude into warm moist air. We were met on the ramp by an FAA inspector who was going to ride with us. While we're chatting in the cockpit, the FO comes in and tells me there is frost under the wings from the humid air coming in contact with the super cooled fuel tanks on the underside of the wing. So here it is, 85 degrees out, and I have to call dispatch for a de-ice truck.
Ice bridging. One of the myths that just won't die, but causes crews and passengers to die. The FAA and NASA did not just come out and say, "You know, today we don't think it exists." They did YEARS of testing trying to get it, and could not. What most pilots see and mistake for ice bridging is actually residual ice and intercycle ice.
Not all ice will be cleanly shed during every inflation cycle – some ice will often remain. It frequently takes two, three or more cycles to get rid of it all. Intercycle ice is ice which forms [FONT=NADGKC+TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman][FONT=NADGKC+TimesNewRoman,Italic,Times New Roman]between [/FONT][/FONT]activations. Between residual ice and intercycle ice, the wing may never be completely clean while the airplane is in active icing conditions. Many pilots see residual ice and/or intercycle ice and then think that they are seeing ice bridging. This tends to perpetuate the myth.
Some pilots believe they should wait to start inflating the boots until 1/4-1/2 inch of ice. DO NOT DO THIS. Inflate the boots at the first sign of ice. First, ice can drastically effect the aerodynamics of not just the wings, but the tail plane. If you get tail plane icing and a tail plane stall- good luck.
An example of this deadly situation occurred in January 1997 when an EMB-120 rolled over and turned into a lawn dart killing everyone on board. Acting according to the Comair Flight Standards Manual, the flight crew had not yet begun to cycle the pneumatic de-ice boots. The manual warned against activating the boots until ¼ to ½ an inch of ice had formed on the wings – apparently out of concern for "ice bridging."
Now, here’s where it gets morbidly interesting. Embraer had revised the aircraft flight manual taking the most recent research into consideration, mandating that the boots be activated at the first sign of icing. But Comair standards pilots were firm believers in the OWT about ice bridging and did not include that provision in its own manual, the one the crew would use for reference. In other words, the crew was just following their company procedure – an incorrect and unsafe procedure, as it turns out, which was contrary to the manufacturer’s instructions.
29 people died in the crash.
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
*shrug*. I've seen pretty serious ice on enough occasions that I'll keep my own council. If I wait until there's half an inch and hit the boots, it falls off (mostly). If I pop them when I first see the ice, there will be ice that doesn't come off, and the ice that piles on to that will not go away no matter how many cycles the boots do. Whatever you call it, more ice=bad, less ice=good. Maybe it's a myth and I ought to listen to a bunch of a dudes on the ground with a computer model, but waiting to hit the boots until there's enough ice to actually fall off has kept me alive this long. You'll forgive me if I keep doing it, I hope.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Not a bunch of dudes on the ground with computer models. A bunch of dudes who fly airplanes into icing conditions on a regular basis. Don't know if you have ever seen the videos of their tests.
BTW, the NTSB has never, ever, in its entire history, investigated any accident involving ice bridging. None. Never. They have, however, investigated numerous accidents where the boots where not inflated soon enough. So be in the group with fatal accidents, or the group that has never had a fatal accident.
But if you would still rather be in the group of pilots who have fatal accidents, verses the group that does not have fatal accidents, might I suggest you take the following course:
http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html
