ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Its true, a lot of it will sublimate, however, there is a terrifying 15minutes where you realize that if you guessed wrong you'd have been dead this time. Stupid I know, but true. Not that I've done anything like that at all.
Ice - Wimpy or Wise?
- Thread starter PICPaul
- Start date
Its true, a lot of it will sublimate, however, there is a terrifying 15minutes where you realize that if you guessed wrong you'd have been dead this time. Stupid I know, but true. Not that I've done anything like that at all.
aloft
New Member
I've heard that before too, but I think it only applies to transport category aircraft and/or Pt 121 ops.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Part 91.527 (its in Part F, so transport category only) 135.227 (talks about polishing it smooth). 121.629 Other than that I think 91.13 covers it most of the time, however, if you're driving your cessna around, you can take off legally in popsicle mode if you're doing it in a way that's neither careless nor reckless.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
they changed it to all a/c. i used to have a copy of it, but i deleted it.
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
Its true. Usually what has been done though is brooming as much off as you can, getting the leading edges clean and then, in known cases to me, doing a couple of turns in the pattern to get the rest off. These were high horsepower rigs though that were empty. Not a 150. Don't worry about what other people do.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Good decision man.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
I think I remember seeing that somewhere around my computer...might have to look again.
Of course, if memory serves, Cessna says that polishing any type of ice accumulation is not an accepted procedure for any of their airframes.
TGatch
Well-Known Member
Wiiiise ...Ice/frost is something you don't wanna mess with..I was doing a x-country with my cfi..and while climbing through the clouds we picked up a little rime ice on the leading edge.. We decided to not go to our destination and turn around so we wouldn't have to go through the clouds those extra two times..and like USM said..you lose 40% of lift with a small amount..in a 150 that's a lot I know! Good choice. Better to be at home wishing you were up in the air than in the air wishing you were on the ground.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I remember back into my first CFI gig, there was frost on the wings in the morning like your picture. They handed me a weed pressure sprayer full of hot glycol (?) and I sprayed the piss outta it! It was dripping completely off the wings, I probably used $50 in fluid. And I was still worried when we rolled down the runway !!
!!
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Careful where you spray that stuff...we cracked a Duchess windscreen a few years ago because someone thought that hot deice fluid would clean it off better than cold deice fluid.
unclenobby
Well-Known Member
Obviously wise.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Wise decision.
Never second guess your decision to stay on the ground for whatever reason.
....
Nevertheless, not that I have done any of this, but if the frost is an extremely thin layer that will tend to melt as you place a bare finger or hand to it, and you know there is a radiational inversion in place, that as you ascend the temperature increases to a point that it will melt the frost off, you'll end up having a clean airfoil shortly after departure, might even have it all clean by the time you reach TPA and making your turn to downwind.
....
But like I said, never second guess a decision to stay on the ground.
Some of my students many moons ago would make an attempt to dump hot water on a frozen wing to get the frost off, little did they know they were making the issue worse. You can melt frost (applying heat, scraping it off as best as one can), but dumping water onto a surface that has been cold soaked below 32F will do no good when that water refreezes into ice. Now what?
Never second guess your decision to stay on the ground for whatever reason.
....
Nevertheless, not that I have done any of this, but if the frost is an extremely thin layer that will tend to melt as you place a bare finger or hand to it, and you know there is a radiational inversion in place, that as you ascend the temperature increases to a point that it will melt the frost off, you'll end up having a clean airfoil shortly after departure, might even have it all clean by the time you reach TPA and making your turn to downwind.
....
But like I said, never second guess a decision to stay on the ground.
Some of my students many moons ago would make an attempt to dump hot water on a frozen wing to get the frost off, little did they know they were making the issue worse. You can melt frost (applying heat, scraping it off as best as one can), but dumping water onto a surface that has been cold soaked below 32F will do no good when that water refreezes into ice. Now what?
Well the deice folks on the UPS ramp never got the message. Last winter we had 5 thanks to them about 50 grand.
As for ice don't f'in mess with it on the ground or in the air. We carry handheld sprayers and a push broom in the 99's most of the time it works just fine other times we hanger or de-ice. If it aint clean im not going thats it.
Excellent choice by not going
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
C'mon, lets be serious, ice is a reality, and you have to operate in conditions that may inadvertantly lead to icing. The trick is not to do anything stupid, which is something that can be hard to do.
Good rules of thumb.
Don't take off with ice or unpolished frost.
Don't continue flight through ice if you don't have deice.
If you have deice, let it build before you blow it off. (Avoid Bridging)
Make sure the static ports are free of obstruction.
Someone said earlier that "ice and frost will cause 40% of your life to be lost." Not true, a categorical statement like that shows someone who doesn't know about how ice works. Ice is not predictable. You can't say "ice will make you crash," or "ice will do this or that." Because you can't show that it will. Ice is, by its very nature, unpredictable, and being ready to roll with the punches in flight, and make intelligent decisions on the ground are the key to operating in it. Part 91 has no provisions for operations in icing conditions outside of subpart f (fractionals), so the only way you can operate is by thinking for yourself, and being rational. If you don't feel comfortable, then don't go. If you feel comfortable, then exercise your judgement and think for yourself.
Part 135, Part 121, and Fractionals you have guidelines, opspecs GOMS etc. In those cases, follow your company guidelines, and interpolate in areas of greyness.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
i think this is the older one, but this one states "the FAA cannot support the practice of polishing frost......."
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/safo/all_safos/media/2006/safo06014.pdf
so what regulation would this be for most part 91'ers? 91.13 gets my vote
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/safo/all_safos/media/2006/safo06014.pdf
so what regulation would this be for most part 91'ers? 91.13 gets my vote
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
To the OP, I look at the pics, and in my experience, no way I'd go.
That said, it is Alaska. It looked like a nice day. If the runway is long, you might give it a try. You'd be a test pilot, but that's one way to learn the limits of your machine.
It would be illegal as heck, but given a long runway, with nobody looking, in Alaska, you could give it a quick shot knowing if she doesn't fly that it just wasn't meant to be.
In the lower 48, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. That's just how we roll down here.
That said, it is Alaska. It looked like a nice day. If the runway is long, you might give it a try. You'd be a test pilot, but that's one way to learn the limits of your machine.
It would be illegal as heck, but given a long runway, with nobody looking, in Alaska, you could give it a quick shot knowing if she doesn't fly that it just wasn't meant to be.
In the lower 48, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. That's just how we roll down here.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
That's the one I had as well...
The thing about 91.13 is that it states "endangering the life or property of another". Not exactly gonna get you every time when you are flying solo in a remote part of the world like Alaska.
Oh, and a few notes about "ice bridging" from NASA and AOPA...
From NASA:
From AOPA:
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Finally, someone who understands this stuff up here. Half the time you're a test pilot and there is nothing you can do about it, the other half of the time, you can control the test. Every time I say something like this I get called a "terrible dangerous pilot." Thanks I'm glad someone finally understands things up here.
I've seen "ice bridging" in the 1900, and its not exactly a low pressure system, the airplane is just old. Bridging is a real thing, plus, if ice accumulation is fast enough you can be just as screwed.
alaskadrifter
Landing gear operator
I didn't bother to read all of the above, but if you may want to think about painting the top of your wings black or some other dark color like that. It really helps a lot in the winter.
