jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
This had better be a joke.
The only joke in this thread is you.
PUT YOUR DAMN HAT ON!
How often do you...
- Thread starter surreal1221
- Start date
The only joke in this thread is you.
PUT YOUR DAMN HAT ON!
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
So, pilots not knowing their reject criteria and not following their "standard reject criteria" from the brief is a training department problem.
Gotcha.
I bet that goes over really well during a carpet dance.
I don't think it's a matter of pilots not knowing their abort criteria. It's just something they rarely use outside of the simulator, and when it's called for it often leaves the average pilot startled. This is the reason I like to review it once a trip/day, just to remind the other pilot in case it happens.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
This had better be a joke.
Honestly, based on some of the responses here, there are a few posters who would be better off NOT applying to SJI. These are required briefing items. If the 4th floor says every leg, they get done every leg. If they change when and how to do it, then that's how it's done. Some people just don't flourish in that kind of environment. Nothing wrong with that, but don't go someplace that will make you and by extension, everyone around you miserable. (Not the personal YOU.)
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I would say that's the same here, too. But, the way I see it is like this:
If it's required at Delta, then brief it.
It is not required to be briefed at my company, nor is that trained. We train that briefs should be, well, brief. Big ticket items. We operate into a lot of unfamiliar places in lots of random, one-off countries, so there are usually bigger fish to fry than briefing normal procedures.
Different strategies for different airlines, both of which have excellent safety records. You guys do what you're trained to do, and we'll do what we're trained to do.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Funny how non compliance, and honestly a total lack of procedural adherence, saw a perfectly good aircraft go off the end of the runway in Bedford, MA.
Complacency is a killer.
This is a high visibility issue globally. It is perfectly okay for you to not agree with the discussion that is taking place.
Take care.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Oh, I get that. Completely agree. What I was trying to convey is that apparently some guys here seem to be perturbed by the need to actually do the briefings and that they would not be happy somewhere that they are forced to do something they think is not required.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Absolutely 100% agreed.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
But we don't have hats?!
Actually, we just got a lightweight North Face type jacket approved. #freight
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Actually not approved here, either.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
PUT YOUR DAMN BACKPACK ON!!!
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I would cluck like a chicken while inside the final approach fix if that's what my company wanted.
I'd try to get it changed through the appropriate channels...but until that happened, I'd do it.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I got a backpack for christmas specifically to bring on the road.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I heart my backpack! Goes well with my braces.
turbomax97
What can brown do for you?
Required for every leg at my shop.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
I've done 3 go arounds during my 9 years at SJI. All of them intermediate altitude. One low speed reject in a 767(which turned out a bit comical since the CA kept forgetting to disconnect the A/T and every time he'd pull the thrust levers back they would try to run right back up).
I've done thousands more takeoffs and landings. Going over the craziness that is a reject (and seriously, abort for anything below V1?? Every jet I've ever flown has a dividing line at 80 knots for low/high speed criteria) and a go around is a good idea. Be intentional and don't just wash over talking about stuff because it's required.
Hookers and coke in my own personal airbus. Winning.
I've done thousands more takeoffs and landings. Going over the craziness that is a reject (and seriously, abort for anything below V1?? Every jet I've ever flown has a dividing line at 80 knots for low/high speed criteria) and a go around is a good idea. Be intentional and don't just wash over talking about stuff because it's required.
Hookers and coke in my own personal airbus. Winning.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Don't forget "we will not abort below 80 for a thrust not set or flex temp not set and just go TOGA and continue!"
AAPalmTree
Well-Known Member
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
What's most interesting to me is how the multi-crew environment takes many relatively simple tasks and turns them into much more complicated ones.
In nearly two decades of flying pointy-nosed, single pilot jets, I can't think of a single task during a go-around that I would have even considered having to mentally review prior to an approach. It was as simple as posted earlier; advance throttles, climb away from the ground, clean up, and execute the missed approach. All of the switch and control movements were mine alone to execute, and remembering what to do wasn't ever really a challenge. The toughest thing I had to do was remember to not accelerate out to 300 knots, but instead stay at 250 because I'd be staying in the radar pattern to eventually return to the field.
In the airline world, with two pilots and intentionally-divided duties, you have now taken a simple task and transplanted a CRM exercise right in the middle of it. The simple control and switch movements now don't just require one person's brain to remember the correct order, but now it requires two people to both recall appropriate callout verbiage in order to share the control and switch movements. This takes a task that is very simple single-person and makes it 2-3 times more complicated. More complicated to the extent where in an actual challenging/time-critical situation, it is easier to simply default back to just doing it yourself (e.g. what @jtrain609 posted).
What I find interesting from a human factors perspective is that, in a high-mental-demand situation, speaking is the first mental task to fall off the cognitive capabilities plate. I saw this all the time when I was training guys to either fly or fight in the T-38; when they were working really, really hard to accomplish an "aviate" task, they didn't even have the mental capacity to speak, and sometimes when they did, it was nonsense that came out of their mouths. This is a human factors problem that the military fighter community goes to great lengths to combat, since verbal communication in a crucial information link between single-seat aircraft working together as a team. Lots and lots of time in spent both making the task itself rote (so as to free up the brain bytes for other tasks), as well as rehearsing the radio commentary phraseology to make it easier to use under stress.
To answer @surreal1221, I'm a neophyte to the airline world, but I will brief the callouts and mechanics for a go-around whenever I am executing an actual instrument approach (and not just the west-coast visual-approach-backed-up-by-the-instrument-because-it-is-so-rarely-IMC-out-here approaches). Some Captains I've flown with have commented that other FOs don't include that as part of their approach briefing, and I'm not all together certain weather they are subtly telling me to stop doing it, or weather they appreciate the review.
In nearly two decades of flying pointy-nosed, single pilot jets, I can't think of a single task during a go-around that I would have even considered having to mentally review prior to an approach. It was as simple as posted earlier; advance throttles, climb away from the ground, clean up, and execute the missed approach. All of the switch and control movements were mine alone to execute, and remembering what to do wasn't ever really a challenge. The toughest thing I had to do was remember to not accelerate out to 300 knots, but instead stay at 250 because I'd be staying in the radar pattern to eventually return to the field.
In the airline world, with two pilots and intentionally-divided duties, you have now taken a simple task and transplanted a CRM exercise right in the middle of it. The simple control and switch movements now don't just require one person's brain to remember the correct order, but now it requires two people to both recall appropriate callout verbiage in order to share the control and switch movements. This takes a task that is very simple single-person and makes it 2-3 times more complicated. More complicated to the extent where in an actual challenging/time-critical situation, it is easier to simply default back to just doing it yourself (e.g. what @jtrain609 posted).
What I find interesting from a human factors perspective is that, in a high-mental-demand situation, speaking is the first mental task to fall off the cognitive capabilities plate. I saw this all the time when I was training guys to either fly or fight in the T-38; when they were working really, really hard to accomplish an "aviate" task, they didn't even have the mental capacity to speak, and sometimes when they did, it was nonsense that came out of their mouths. This is a human factors problem that the military fighter community goes to great lengths to combat, since verbal communication in a crucial information link between single-seat aircraft working together as a team. Lots and lots of time in spent both making the task itself rote (so as to free up the brain bytes for other tasks), as well as rehearsing the radio commentary phraseology to make it easier to use under stress.
To answer @surreal1221, I'm a neophyte to the airline world, but I will brief the callouts and mechanics for a go-around whenever I am executing an actual instrument approach (and not just the west-coast visual-approach-backed-up-by-the-instrument-because-it-is-so-rarely-IMC-out-here approaches). Some Captains I've flown with have commented that other FOs don't include that as part of their approach briefing, and I'm not all together certain weather they are subtly telling me to stop doing it, or weather they appreciate the review.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Are the contents and order of that briefing specifically ascribed by your company?
It's right off a briefing card we were once issued but it's in one of our manuals is.