How low can the mins go?

[ QUOTE ]
So, I'll get over myself when you make an intelligent comment. Until proven otherwise, you are LACKING "knowledge and expertise" in my book

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In my opinion, flying 172 in traffic pattern does not really help you for your 1st jet job. just 0.02 cents. Just wondering what does lack of quality of low time pilot mean?
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adreamer
 
Wow...

I heard that I might get a little flak about even mentioning FSA, but geez... Not once have I referred to myself as special, better than anyone, etc because of where I trained. I think that emotion is causing some reactions to judge me unfairly. I seek camraderie, a place to openly express differing viewpoints, and constructive commentary.

If you re-read my quote in your post, I think you'll notice that I said this forum is addressing "the lack of quality of low-time pilots (such as myself...a low-time pilot)" for right set jet positions. What I meant by that is that experienced pilots in this forum seem to be concerned about lower hiring minima of the regionals. I think you may have thought that I was simply bragging about myself as a "quality" low-time pilot. Such was not the case.

I do not know how my postings have drawn such opposition. I have written my views with a congenial attitude and with respect to others on this forum. Please note that my initial post was simply to discuss with experienced pilots on this forum their views regarding low-time new hires, and experience value vs. the value of knowledge and intensity of preparation and to present some alternate viewpoints.

My apologies for any confusion...

Check_Six

P.S. I have really appreciate the positive and/or advice giving comments that I have received since my initial posting.
 
Guess what, there is no magic number. You don't suddenly go from being "inexperienced" to "experienced" as you pass a required total time in the logbook. It's all variable, based on who you are, who you want to be, what you fly, who you fly with, where you fly, among other things. There is no cookie cutter mold for a good pilot.

I was hired at a regional to fly a pretty complex turboprop, in a complex ATC system, in the Midwest with very low time. The only thing that allowed me to survive and get to this point was open ears, open eyes, and being prepared to assimilate every piece of information and experience that could be handed down. It's not because I'm a good pilot or anything. Most importantly, it's because I flew with a lot of pilots who appreciated my willingness to learn, and would sit there and teach me things. They'd pass their experience. Instead of saying, "Low time pilots, don't know anything, sheesh", they told me what I needed to know.

GUESS WHAT: You won't learn everything you need to know to fly a jet at a regional by CFIing. If you think that getting 2000 hours dual given will help make you an awesome airline pilot, guess again. What will make the difference is getting out there, holding your own, listening to your Captains, and STUDYING, STUDYING, STUDYING. It's not easy.

NJACapt and a few others, I worry about some of your posts. I hope you never are subjected to fly with a low time new-hire like myself. It seems like you'd hold the fact we were hired at a certain number of hours over our heads, and therefore waste time you could be injecting your years of experience into our ears and into our heads.

Just because some low-time pilots have been hired and start acting like they know it all, does not mean we all know it all and aren't willing to learn. Lumping everyone into one stereotype thanks to a few bad apples is doing much more negative than good.

NJACapt, I also should point out that in my current position as a 2nd year regional jet FO, I'm making more than your 18 year FOs at NetJets. Same rate for domestic per diem. We also have a B-plan and Profit Sharing which it seems you do not. So your "regional pilots are bringing down the industry" posts are just not cutting it.
 
I have enjoyed reading all your post and agree and disagree with points everyone has made in this thread.
Your new to JC and I'll wager you were a lurker for a time.
Low time right seat pilots at regionals and the FBO vs. big academies and PFT/PFJ are HUGE,HUGE topics here.
Made even more passionate due to the fact that some people feel that they are contributing to the "race to the bottom" in the industry.
Everybody has there opinion and their truths.
As I stated I have enjoyed reading your post and found them to be informative.
Don't get discourage by the passionate feelings of some members or the light ribbing that takes place here or the people who think that they know the right/better way to acheive true sucess in this industry.
I guess what I'm trying to say is...just don't take your ball and go home!

-Matthew
 
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nice post chicaga. New F.O's need to study, observe and learn. It shouldn't matter what level of flying you are in(regional, major, freight).......a new employee will be a hinderance for the captain for some time.
In fact, I'd venture to say that in any industry, a new hire is not an asset until they have spent time learning the intricacys of the company....be they s.o.p.'s, a/c systems, etc.... All these things take "time in position" before the new hire will become the asset they were hired to be.

And guess what.........that's how experience is developed.
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just my opinion.....
 
Thanks Max!

I really appreciate the positive feedback! I am indeed new to JC and have been reading many of the forums over the past few days. I've heard from friends using this site that it is a great resource for younger pilots to get some great advice on a wide range of topics. I'm excited to be here and will watch my words a bit so as not to incite an online riot. Thanks!

With much appreciation,
Check_Six
 
Chicaga I know this is probably hitting close to home for you but you are right there is no magic number and every single person is different. I have a feeling, however, you and others like you are far more the exception than the rule.

However, I'd simply ask you to refrain from judging flight instructing until you yourself have done it, in a real airplane.

No one gets it. No matter what type of flying you do it all adds experience. It all adds tricks to your trade and at then end of the day it's this bickering between pilot groups that is tearing the industry down. All management has to do is play on our fears and we do all their dirty work for them.

And yes low time pilots CAN do a good job in a jet but experience is still valuable whether it be instructing, jumper dropping, driving a turboprop around et. all. You yourself even said at your low time you were behind the ball for quite some time. You did the work and got up to speed but not everyone out there has YOUR work ethic.
 
What's the solution? Should low time pilots voluntarily refrain from applying? Should airlines or even the government establish a minimum hour requirement?

Personally I think the experience gained from the hours flown is more important than the number of hours one has.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm excited to be here and will watch my words a bit so as not to incite an online riot. Thanks!


[/ QUOTE ]

No,no,no don't watch your words...speak your mind say what you think and feel honestly,yet respectfully to other members on the board.
But be prepared to receive possible opposite and opposing views at time.
Heated discussion and people possibly individuals saying that your wrong and or have messed up views.
Just don't get easily offended,grow thick skin and be prepared to accurately defend your point of view.
With facts or opinions depending on the type of discussion at hand.
But don't ever wimp out and take your "ball and go home!"

-Matthew
 
[ QUOTE ]
You yourself even said at your low time you were behind the ball for quite some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to that statement, if you do have a high TT or instruct you'd be johnny on the spot from day one.
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[ QUOTE ]
No matter what type of flying you do it all adds experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I agree with that, even MSFS adds experience.
 
Wow after being gone for a while I come back to a post that you guys stole from FlightInfo.com.

They have been talking about this stuff for ever over there.
 
[ QUOTE ]
However, I'd simply ask you to refrain from judging flight instructing until you yourself have done it, in a real airplane.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not knocking flight instructing. I, in fact, have all my instructor ratings and dual given in my logbook. I do not have 2000 hours of dual given, but I enjoyed instructing for the time I did, and think that it is an invaluable experience. Don't think I'm knocking it.
 
"I can't buy a pilot that spent 3,000 hours instructing, or whatever, without having to go through real emergencies is any better than a pilot who has spent more flight time in actual emergencies and has only 1,000 hours"

What's this thing with emergencies? I've never had a declared emergency and have only had a handful of anything I'd consider abnormals in my career. How can I get more of this important emergency experience so I can be considered more qualified?
 
[ QUOTE ]
"I can't buy a pilot that spent 3,000 hours instructing, or whatever, without having to go through real emergencies is any better than a pilot who has spent more flight time in actual emergencies and has only 1,000 hours"

What's this thing with emergencies? I've never had a declared emergency and have only had a handful of anything I'd consider abnormals in my career. How can I get more of this important emergency experience so I can be considered more qualified?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simulated emergencies for the most part. The point I was making is that flying holes in the sky under the same conditions or conditions within a set envelope doesn't do anything compared to if you get actual experience in different extreme situations.
I know when I interview, I'll ask of particular situations followed by how did they handle it. Actual situations are the best in my book.
 
"I won't debate FSA v. FBO with you because I have read a few posts you have written and I know that it wouldn't be productive."

You're right.

"I would, however, hazard a guess that you have never attended a single class, nor obtained any ratings through FSA."

Bingo, right again.

"You can assume that an FBO can match the resources, staff knowledge, and overall quality of education...but you don't REALLY know"

My point would be that all that stuff isn't as big a deal you think. In fact, big academies tend to overly restrict the ability to experience some things through all their rules. Being overly restrictive causes one to miss out on short runways, grass runways, actual IFR, or crosswinds to the POH limits. An FSA type environment has it's place for some and I don't mean to knock it. But I really don't believe the cost/benefit ratio makes it a smart place place for everybody to train, nor do I believe you'll be a better airline pilot someday if you go to FSA.

"But, if I am correct, then I really don't think you have the right to comment on the level of training provided by that institution or the level of expertise of its graduate because you really don't know."

I still have a right to my opinion, as misguided as you find it. Same thing could be said about you and your comments about who should be in the right seat of an RJ, considering you are a 500 hour CFI. You really don't know. Come back when you're an RJ Capt babysitting 300 hour F/O's and I'll pay a bit more attention.

"Not trying to upset you...just givin' my view"

Same here.
 
[ QUOTE ]
NJACapt…I hope you never are subjected to fly with a low time new-hire like myself…Just because some low-time pilots have been hired and start acting like they know it all, does not mean we all know it all and aren't willing to learn. Lumping everyone into one stereotype thanks to a few bad apples is doing much more negative than good.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your concern, although I addressed that point in my thread. As I stated, I have no problem with low time pilots and have enjoyed many weeks on the road with them. I will point out, that no matter how much the regionals complain about lack of “qualified” pilots, our company still manages to attract plenty of pilots with minimums of 2500tt. Most are actually over 8000tt, but whos counting. We even have 3 pilots from the Air Force/ Marine One.

[ QUOTE ]
NJACapt, I also should point out that in my current position as a 2nd year regional jet FO, I'm making more than your 18 year FOs at NetJets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry Charlie, the only thing that doesn’t cut it is your post. In your haste to separate yourself from the “know it alls” you have started to sound like one.

Profit sharing and per diem are great. BUT THAT AIN’T SALARY. I have a 401K with a 50 percent match, so what?

Just for the record:
We have no FOs that are 18 year employees. As a matter of fact our FO pay scale only goes to 5 years. A person at NJA (today) with 18 years, is a Capt on the BBJ making 250+K. I don’t think your regional is quite there yet. Also keep in mind that these numbers reflect the 1998 pay scale (currently bargaining on the successor contract.)

I’m not sure where your salary comparison came from. On Airline pilot pay.com a
3rd year FO at xjet makes approx 30K base.
A 3rd year FO at NJA is approx 30K (1998).

But, this is neither here nor there. We aren’t the ones hiring 500 hour pilots.
 
I looked at airline pilot pay, and I must say it was a surprise to see how much lower the rates where over there then what I thought.
 
That's great about the quality of your pilots. You'd be surprised at ours as well. I'm not trying to swing balls with you here, but there is actually an ex-Air Force F-4 pilot who was hired around the same time frame as me at XJT. With plenty of time. They come from all walks of life. I've flown with ex-United, TWA, Delta, Continental, Midway, Pan Am, Bar Harbor, Rocky Mountain, Britt Airways, ACA, Trans States, Mesa, Navy, Marine, and Air Force pilots during my time at the regionals. Among others.

You have your QOL, and we have ours. There are many-year FOs here, who are choosing QOL over a payrate. Is a 15-year RJ FO somehow less of a pilot than a 15-yr CE-650 Captain? No, they just chose a different route. No need to belittle them for a payrate. I don't see our RJ airline pilots belittling any Fractional pilots for their career choices. I'm not belittling you here; don't misinterpret me.

About your salary argument. I don't care if it's base, overtime, per diem, profit sharing, or 401(k) matches. It's MONEY. It's all about dollars and days off. Show me the money, and show me the time at home. Anything else is just swinging balls. I'd fly a Cessna 310 for $100K a year with 20 days off over a B777 for $70K a year and 15 days off. I'm actually quite happy at the moment with our B plan. Hopefully, next time around in negotiations, we can achieve more for retirement.

It's just somehow become popular to start ragging on regional jet pilots for the terrible turn this industry has taken. We are scapegoats. That is just not the case. We are ALL at fault: Regional, Major, Fractional; Pilots in general. So when you see some 600-hour regional jet pilot, don't automatically turn up your nose and say "I'm better than you." It's just a pilot who saw a job opportunity, took it, to move up in the world. Why not start directing your attention to those pilots who have taken steps BACKWARD.

I say that if a pilot can pass the interview process, get through ground school, the simulator, and IOE, WITHOUT HANDHOLDING or SPECIAL ASSISTANCE, then more power to them. In my personal experience, I've found many pilots who feel I don't belong because of my qualifications when I started at my previous carrier. I never "paid my dues." Yes, I capitalized on an opportunity when it arose. You would have too. But somehow saying that myself, or anyone like me (a few on these boards in fact), is unsafe or somehow like the Pinnacle 3701 pilots because of our flight time is ridiculous. There are too many variables into making a good airline pilot to choose one thing.

Please do not think I'm attempting to pick a fight, or somehow disrespecting you as a pilot. I respect your position, your time, and your experience. But I just get tired of the ails of the airline industry falling on the shoulders of regional pilots; also I am particularly tired of pilots outside the industry capitalizing on these ails to make us feel bad about these decisions to fly passenger carriage. It is by the Grace of God that other sectors of aviations are doing well during this shakeup in the airline industry. Enjoy it.
 
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