How low can the mins go?

nice post alchemy.

just look at places like india and china. people from there, come to the US get all the rating they need here. go back to wherever they come from and hop into an A320 with 300 hours and 25 multi. hopefully the training over there is pretty damn good over there.
 
Actually the guys from India go back and go through ten months of intense training on whatever aircraft they are going to be flying. So they, supposedly, should come out more experienced after training they we do over here.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The captain had 6700 TT.

[/ QUOTE ]
He had 5500 PIC. Mostly in a B1900. By analyzing his times from the review, he was hired into the B1900 with around 1000 tt. He also had about 800 hours SIC in the CRJ.

He was the professional equivalent of the 1500 hr CFI that is always brought up here. (You know 1500 hours of pattern work compared to 50 hrs in a CRJ sim.) 5000 hours below FL180 isn't squat at FL410 in a swept wing transport.

He was a low time PIC paired with an extremely low timed SIC (bad practice). In all likelyhood, if he had been paired with a senior FO, they would have never been in the news.
 
You will see 400 hrs TT and 100 hrs multi. This will not be the street times, however, it will be for the flight school students that have completed an approved course by that regional airline.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The captain had 6700 TT.

[/ QUOTE ]
He had 5500 PIC. Mostly in a B1900. By analyzing his times from the review, he was hired into the B1900 with around 1000 tt. He also had about 800 hours SIC in the CRJ.

He was the professional equivalent of the 1500 hr CFI that is always brought up here. (You know 1500 hours of pattern work compared to 50 hrs in a CRJ sim.) 5000 hours below FL180 isn't squat at FL410 in a swept wing transport.

He was a low time PIC paired with an extremely low timed SIC (bad practice). In all likelyhood, if he had been paired with a senior FO, they would have never been in the news.

[/ QUOTE ]

What was the NTSB's final ruling on that crash? They went above service ceiling and had a crapload of warning msgs on ED1?
 
[ QUOTE ]
What was the NTSB's final ruling on that crash? They went above service ceiling and had a crapload of warning msgs on ED1?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the final ruling is out yet. It appears to be leaning towards engine "core lock." They seem to be eager to overlook the:
Seat swapping (twice)
2g pull-ups
Stick pusher activation (5 times)
etc.

They were not above the service ceiling, they were at it (for :05min).
 
In response to several of the topics in this forum...

It seems that the true focus of these forums is often lost as each poster simply defends his/her flight training, number of hours, and opinions regarding "acceptable mins" to the death.

My response to why the Pinnacle pilot crashed is simple and concise: THEY USED POOR JUDGEMENT. It does not matter if you are a 300hr F.O. out of a direct track program or a 10,000hr Capt with tons of 135 night IFR cross-country time...anyone acting without common sense (i.e. "hot-dogging" or "been-there-done-that" syndrome) can wreck an aircraft. The questions being asked should not focus on whether or not they had enough time or experience, but whether these gentleman had the common sense and quality decision-making skills to be flying any aircraft, much less a jet. I have personally known excellent pilots (such as those in this forum) that occasionally "check their brain at the door" and make a poor choice. It happens...regardless of the amount of experience. None of us are immune to foolish mistakes. I think there are some people on these forums that feel it is their mission to save the aviation world from "low-timers" by preaching the arcane concept of "paying dues". I respect those of you that were long-time CFI's, 135 frieghter pilots, banner-towers, etc. But I would gladly choose to have a motivated, disciplined, well-studied, and quality-trained "low-time" F.O. sitting in my right seat any day rather than the average joe pilot who "paid his dues". Experience is great, but at what point should we consider work ethic, aircraft knowledge, breeding (i.e. quality of flight training), intensity of effort in regards to being prepared, and, let me not forget, even a little of that "natural stick" ability over "BUT HEY, HE's GOT EXPERIENCE".

I must also include my father's opinion as he is the best pilot I know
grin.gif
Yes...I am a little biased. But, his credentials speak for themselves:
3,000hrs in military transports; 24,000 or so hours with United (yes the pension thing sux)...and plenty of G.A. flying through the years. I cannot have enough respect for his opinion as an aviation professional and because of the fact that he has always been straight with me regarding the pursuit of my aviation career goals. He has told me many times that his personal favorite thing in an F.O. is a military background. In terms of the civilian world, however, he would much prefer a graduate from a top flight school (his recommendation and the one I attended was FlightSafety...I am not saying this to draw comments/anger, simply to inform), who is "sharp" (i.e. displays a willingness to learn, adapt, and improvise...not just a person who can read detailed 141 checklists), and shows up to the gate PREPARED TO FLY THE JET (meaning not just a guy who passed airlines indoc training. He always taught me to grow beyond just the curriculum of whatever flightschool/indoc. you are attending (FBO, F.S.I., CRJ ground school, whatever).

My apologies...this isn't supposed to be a rant. I just feel like we, as pilots and/or "experienced" pilots, are focusing too much on numbers and abstract words like "experience" rather than "who IS the guy sitting in the right seat next to me?"

I'll bet some of the 600hr fighter pilots in these forums don't want to read that the only good jet pilots are those with 2,000 hrs.

With respect,
Check_Six
 
[ QUOTE ]
In response to several of the topics in this forum...

It seems that the true focus of these forums is often lost as each poster simply defends his/her flight training, number of hours, and opinions regarding "acceptable mins" to the death.

My response to why the Pinnacle pilot crashed is simple and concise: THEY USED POOR JUDGEMENT. It does not matter if you are a 300hr F.O. out of a direct track program or a 10,000hr Capt with tons of 135 night IFR cross-country time...anyone acting without common sense (i.e. "hot-dogging" or "been-there-done-that" syndrome) can wreck an aircraft. The questions being asked should not focus on whether or not they had enough time or experience, but whether these gentleman had the common sense and quality decision-making skills to be flying any aircraft, much less a jet. I have personally known excellent pilots (such as those in this forum) that occasionally "check their brain at the door" and make a poor choice. It happens...regardless of the amount of experience. None of us are immune to foolish mistakes. I think there are some people on these forums that feel it is their mission to save the aviation world from "low-timers" by preaching the arcane concept of "paying dues". I respect those of you that were long-time CFI's, 135 frieghter pilots, banner-towers, etc. But I would gladly choose to have a motivated, disciplined, well-studied, and quality-trained "low-time" F.O. sitting in my right seat any day rather than the average joe pilot who "paid his dues". Experience is great, but at what point should we consider work ethic, aircraft knowledge, breeding (i.e. quality of flight training), intensity of effort in regards to being prepared, and, let me not forget, even a little of that "natural stick" ability over "BUT HEY, HE's GOT EXPERIENCE".

With respect,
Check_Six

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's where you're missing the mark, and where "experience" is golden. The guys in the Pinnacle crash didn't just use bad judgement or make a bad call. They didn't know enough about their aircraft's limitations, high altitude flying, and didn't have the prescence of mind to listen to what their plane was telling them. ALL of these things point squarely back to lack of experience and/or lack of training, or both. So yes, experience does make a difference. What these guys were doing was playing test pilot, yet they didn't know how much they didn't know regarding what they were doing.

Their inexperience led to their poor judgement that you cite. The poor judgement didn't just come out of nowhere. And this is very apparent on the CVR tape. Sure they may have been hotdogging, but the fact that they had no idea concening the road they were heading down, so to speak, and missed every sign the aircraft was throwing at them to tell them it didn't like where they were taking it, is disturbing; and points to much more than your overly simplified "poor judgement" call. Experience is very important, my friend; and nothing to be poo-poo'd. Experience only comes from time spent outside the nest doing the job; not from any training program......you can't train experience. It's not possible.
 
[ QUOTE ]
you can't train experience. It's not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to replace a 30-year Airline Captain, it's gonna take 30 years.
 
Hello MikeD!

I have read and enjoyed many of your posts in this and other forums, so thank you for taking time to respond to mine
smile.gif


[ QUOTE ]
Their inexperience led to their poor judgement that you cite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure that we will probably "agree to disagree" on this point, but I would like to present this alternate viewpoint:

Lack of experience didn't lead to the poor judgement of those Pinnacle pilots and it isn't what killed them (I wish that I could say more experience might have helped, but in this case I'm not so sure)...it was their lack of knowledge combined with a lack of common sense. You actually helped me prove my point by writing the following...

[ QUOTE ]
They didn't know enough about their aircraft's limitations, high altitude flying, and didn't have the prescence of mind to listen to what their plane was telling them...
...they had no idea concening the road they were heading down, so to speak, and missed every sign the aircraft was throwing at them to tell them it didn't like where they were taking it, is disturbing;

[/ QUOTE ]

May I say that I DEFINATELY agree with your assessment of the Pinnacle situation as "disturbing". I don't think that any amount of experience could have overcome the issues you addressed in the above quote because of the attitude shown by those specific pilots. I have never flown any model of the CRJ and therefore could be considered inexperienced, yet I feel that (after reading many of your posts) I can confidently say that you and I would not have had a similar result while flying that Pinnacle aircraft. Why? Becasuse I am sure that you and I are similar in that we would never fly any aircraft (much less a jet) without a crystal clear knowledge of its limitations, systems, indicators, and emergency procedures. Also, I am sure that we would ensure that our knowlegde of high-altitude flight operations was sharp. We would know the "road that we were heading down" because that's how we operate an aircraft...a few steps ahead of it at all times. The point I am trying to make is that, regardless of our experience levels, we are safe pilots because we approach an aircraft with respect, preparedness, and the prescence of mind that those Pinnacle pilots checked on the ramp. I respect any pilot who operates a jet aircraft, or any other, with the qualities I listed.

Most importantly, I want you to know that I do respect experience. I stated in my previous post that much of my respect for my father's professional opinions is based on his experience. I promise that I will never "poo-poo" those who have put the time on the line as CFI's, airline pilots, military pilots, etc. I have been outside the nest doing the job and will share a drink (not within 8 hrs of course
wink.gif
) with any good man doing the same. But I do have a much greater respect for those pilots with experience who recognize the great personal attributes, quality airmanship, and safe flying that can be shown by any pilot.

I respect ya' MikeD...and I appreciate the good conversation.

Best Regards,
Check_Six
 
I know enough now to know that I don't know enough.

Knowledge comes with experience plain and simple. I don't think anyone will argue the fact that if you stuck a 55 year cpt. in that RJ that things would have turned out diferently. However I think aviation is reaching a sad time in that the experience isn't counting as much as it used to. It doesn't need to anymore. In the jet I'm flying you don't have to touch the controls once you pass 400 AGL until your short final and want to flare. You don't have to have the experience tracking radials and shooting approaches in •e weather anymore because you don't have to in a new jet. You don't have to worry about that storm that was reported by flight service becuase you can download it on XM weather and divert 500 miles before you get there. You don't have to worry about looking for traffic cause you have TCAS. Nor do you need to know how much ice your plane can handle or where to go if it starts to get real heavy because you can just ask for a vector and move the heading bug. Theres no doubt these things have made flying safer, thank god. But I strongly believe where reaching the end of the line for the commercial PILOT and we'll soon be seeing a crop of professional aviation technicians coming out of ITT Tech with no real flight training that are there to simply reboot the computer and record temps. Maybe thats why I'm tryin to find a nice little twin cessna or king air 90 for me to fly around in. Unless of course the USAF decides to finally give me a recruiter!!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to an industry that instead of increasing benefits when the resume stack gets low, resorts to lowering the minimum acceptable experience level

[/ QUOTE ]

What other option is there? Current airline economics precludes raising flight crew costs.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it. What a surprise....

We are inching closer to the European model of Ab Initio training and there is no reason for it other than for these big academies to come up with a new program to make a buck. I think the old way works just fine, thank you.

No matter how you train these guys, they will lack the real world experience to bring an adequate level of knowledge to the jet airline cockpit. They will need to be babysat for their first 200 to 300 hours. Yeah, they will do just fine in ground school and the sim but you can't train for the real world in a classroom.

There is no substitute for experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true. But like it or not, experienced people are apparently getting harder and harder to find, otherwise you would not see a lowering of the minimums. A company can only hire the people that apply. If the only people applying are 500 hour pilots, then that is who they will hire.
 
[ QUOTE ]

May I say that I DEFINATELY agree with your assessment of the Pinnacle situation as "disturbing". I don't think that any amount of experience could have overcome the issues you addressed in the above quote because of the attitude shown by those specific pilots. I have never flown any model of the CRJ and therefore could be considered inexperienced, yet I feel that (after reading many of your posts) I can confidently say that you and I would not have had a similar result while flying that Pinnacle aircraft. Why? Becasuse I am sure that you and I are similar in that we would never fly any aircraft (much less a jet) without a crystal clear knowledge of its limitations, systems, indicators, and emergency procedures. Also, I am sure that we would ensure that our knowlegde of high-altitude flight operations was sharp. We would know the "road that we were heading down" because that's how we operate an aircraft...a few steps ahead of it at all times. The point I am trying to make is that, regardless of our experience levels, we are safe pilots because we approach an aircraft with respect, preparedness, and the prescence of mind that those Pinnacle pilots checked on the ramp. I respect any pilot who operates a jet aircraft, or any other, with the qualities I listed.


I respect ya' MikeD...and I appreciate the good conversation.

Best Regards,
Check_Six

[/ QUOTE ]

Appreciate the comments. The only place I would slightly differ with you, or maybe add to what you and I are saying, is that on the subject of experience versus training.

These guys had the training. In the sense that they were trained, current, and qualified to fly that aircraft daily. They were trained to fly it in it's normal operating envelope, and I'm sure, get from point A to point B safely. In fact, this is what they had been doing their whole time in their career up to that point. Where I personally believe the experience "bug" bit them, is they didn't know enough of high altitude swept-wing aerodynamics in general, and their specific aircraft's operations "outside the box" in particular. The combination of a) lack of experience for the former, and b) lack of training for the latter; combined to bite them. You know as well as I do that there's no "one cause" to any accident, and I sincerely believe that a good combination of these factors, to varying degrees, helped them to their demise. Bad judgement? It was there. Training problems? It was there. Experience level issues? Reared it's ugly head......it was there. Overconfidence in one's abilities? Yup.

A tragedy that didn't have to happen......that is, there were so many avoidable issues here. But when one desires to play test pilot, they take the gamble..........sometimes hit 21, sometimes you bust......sadly.

The difference between experience and training, is that experience will keep you out of the trouble that lurks beyond the edge of training boundaries.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Knowledge comes with experience plain and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so, joe. Some knowledge comes with experience but not all
grin.gif
 
I don't know why everyone is so surprised. Lowering the bar to lower employee costs is happening in every industry. Look at Dell's customer service, English seems to be optional. IT jobs are being sent overseas as are most manufacturing jobs. It is not just happening in aviation.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why everyone is so surprised. Lowering the bar to lower employee costs is happening in every industry. Look at Dell's customer service, English seems to be optional. IT jobs are being sent overseas as are most manufacturing jobs. It is not just happening in aviation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to LMAO, but that is so true.
yeahthat.gif


At my job, I was instructed to just hire bodies to create troubletickets. Experience and training was a mute point at that time.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it. What a surprise....

We are inching closer to the European model of Ab Initio training and there is no reason for it other than for these big academies to come up with a new program to make a buck. I think the old way works just fine, thank you.

No matter how you train these guys, they will lack the real world experience to bring an adequate level of knowledge to the jet airline cockpit. They will need to be babysat for their first 200 to 300 hours. Yeah, they will do just fine in ground school and the sim but you can't train for the real world in a classroom.

There is no substitute for experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true. But like it or not, experienced people are apparently getting harder and harder to find, otherwise you would not see a lowering of the minimums. A company can only hire the people that apply. If the only people applying are 500 hour pilots, then that is who they will hire.

[/ QUOTE ]

A PERFECT example of how "supply and demand" is artificially manipulated. In other industries when there is a shortage of qualified people pay goes up. And you're kidding yourself if you really think that pilot pay is what is bankrupting these airlines.

Doug what did you figure it cost per ticket for you and your captains pay? Somthing like $5 per ticket for both of ya (and that was before the 32% pay cut).
 
[ QUOTE ]
If the only people applying are 500 hour pilots, then that is who they will hire.

[/ QUOTE ]

BS Flag.

People. 500 hour pilots are getting hired because they are willing to accept the LOW pay and poor conditions. They will wet all over themselves to get in a shiny jet instead of CFI in a C152. There are THOUSANDS of qualified and EXPERIENCED pilots out there (courtesy of the many furloughs) who would love to fly anything if the pay was there. Does the phrase "pay is commensurate with experience" ring a bell? The high timed guys tell them to stick it and move on. There is no shortage...the airlines just aren't willing to pay for their services. They would rather "take their chances" with low timers. All they are doing is playing the (insurance) odds.

How many people would strive to be Doctors if the starting pay was 20K? How about an Attorney? You wouldn't find a Doc within 100 miles if that was the case. But NOOOOOOOOOO, pilots are more than happy to implode the profession and fly a jet for <20K WTF??????

AGAIN.....
Quit using this LAME (nea ignorant) excuse that the military flys F16s with 300 hour pilots. Those guys train FOR YEARS before they are cut loose. They don't just pop out of college, get 50 hrs in an F16 sim and go fight bad guys in Iraq. As you are willing to accept in the regional market.
How do you think the USAF would react if AF academy grads were issued Fighters at graduation instead of working their way up??? Similar to the reaction you get from a lot of us I'm sure.

I don't care what the pilot factories are pumping you up with. There is no substitute for experience and experience can't be poured into your head. Sure a little exposure (CRJ course) is a good thing. I don't see anything wrong with it. However, to think you are experienced based on this exposure is naive.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against low time guys. As a matter of fact I enjoy it and was an IOE Capt for a number of years (OK....so low time to us is 2500 hrs). I also enjoyed all 1200 hrs dual given. There is a big difference in the guys that know they lack experience and seek to gain it and the guys that get hired and think they know it all.

It pains me to hear of CRJ guys "punching the button" and slide back to read the USA Today. Talk to the Capt! Find out what he knows and what you don't.
 
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