How low can the mins go?

No, DE72 and I go way back on FBO VS good schools. Some FBO's can be good, most are shady and the majority of the 141 academy/university schools are great (FSA, UND, Riddle) with respect to quality, standardized training and only a few are bad (DCA, Pan-Am, Westwind)..

Thats the difference.

BTW....Whole other thread..

ILS
 
Re: CLR4ILS

Clr3ils, I did my training at 2 different FBOs, both part 61 and 141. The training was fine and I was happy. I went to FSA and was unhappy.

1. I heard numerous times that FSA was the Harvard of flight academies. This is the mentality of people who champion FSA. Noone who has been to Harvard would make the comparision to a technical school with NO admission standards.

2. Of my 2 instructors, I knew more about IFR flying from my 61 experiences than one FSA instructor. So he put up a defensive attitude about it and our relationship went south. Just because someone was hired by FSA doesn't mean that they know their stuff.

3. Of these resources that you mention, I found these to be BS-smart marketing that you bought into.

Here's some examples: one chief pilot (former navy, male, older) insisted that coriolis effect could even happen to small bowls and when I question him because of something we learned earlier, he gave me a dirty look. We learned this from another guy who was a former meterologist said that it is an urban legend about c-effect and it only happened on large bodies.

Another example: another old timer (former FAA, pilot who was supposed to be on 707, crashed on takeoff simulated engine failure training, he tells everybody this story) had us for two sessions in which all we did was do the gleim book. And we were paying $$$ for this!

The point is that the resources that are so touted of the big 141 are just smart marketing. You find the same people at both types of schools, it's just that the big schools make you think that they are better. I'm not saying that the pilots think they're better, just that they want you to pay a premium for a product, and to do this, they have smart marketers and flashy ads that make people think that FSA = Harvard.

4. Oh yeah, the prices are a ripoff too.
 
edited.....grassroots stole my thunder!
grin.gif


But my basic point is there are very few sweeping generalizations that can be made regards 61/141. For every point, there can be an equal and opposite counterpoint....that can be just as accurate.

To say most FBOs are shady, is somewhat a large generalization of FBOs.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Some FBO's can be good, most are shady and the majority of the 141 academy/university schools are great (FSA, UND, Riddle) with respect to quality, standardized training and only a few are bad (DCA, Pan-Am, Westwind)..

[/ QUOTE ]

So, percentage wise, FBOs are still better I take it. Since there are fewer "good schools" as you put it and they have a decent chunk of bad apples (let's not forget that even ATA in Orlando was 141 for a while), then percentage wise, there are fewer "shady" FBOs than academies. The bottom line is that you should check out ANY school you go to before signing on the dotted line, not be swayed by snake oil salesmen, fancy ads or slick marketing. I'm still not convinced that academies offer a superior product for the price they charge. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: it depends more on who your instructor was and how you were trained over the name on the door of your flight school. If you had a crappy instructor, it's not gonna make a damn bit of difference if you went to Joe's Flight School or FSA.
 
Re: CLR4ILS

I think it's just frustrating for us regional newhires on the board to see that we're not pleasing the guys we looked up to when we started this whole aviation gig.....Doug, MikeD, DE727, A300capt, these are all guys I admired back when I was a student pilot in 2001 and still do. We all read your bios and saw what you did, doug and A300capt both flew for the regionals and I had always figured that was the next logical step for me after instructing. The opportunity came and I took it...

I don't really take this stuff personally, and yeah, I realize that the regionals are the "minor leagues" of aviation and that I'm flying a "crap plane" for "crap money" (at least that's what I'm told), but I never got so much flack back when I was CFI'ing in a tin can for even less. The level of animosity toward regional pilots is baffling at times, but understandable at others. I guess the better the position you're in, the more you'll find people taking shots at you. It's just odd that I seem to need to feel guilty about being happy with my job.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and 300 hour pilots scare the hell out of him

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to come out swinging but......maybe it was you that scared the hell out of him at 300 hours.


[ QUOTE ]
while it's all great and well that your father has so much experience you can't honeslty believe a 300 hour pilot could replace him.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not what he was saying captain Otter.

[ QUOTE ]
I have just over 1,000 hours and just got hired to fly a Twin Otter. I think my experience matches the responsibilities and capabilities of the aircraft and of sitting right seat in a fixed gear twin that tops out at about 140kts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either... A) you have a confidence problem or.... B) you were not as focused as you would like to believe if your capabilities stop at a twin with fixed gear busting 140 knots.

I will give you credit for admitting it though.


[ QUOTE ]
I went through Part 61 training

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there you have it....

ILS

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it looks like your $80,000 FSA "education" has served you well. Thanks for showing the world just what FSA can do for YOU!
grin.gif
 
Re: CLR4ILS

[ QUOTE ]
Clr3ils, I did my training at 2 different FBOs, both part 61 and 141. The training was fine and I was happy. I went to FSA and was unhappy.

1. I heard numerous times that FSA was the Harvard of flight academies. This is the mentality of people who champion FSA. Noone who has been to Harvard would make the comparision to a technical school with NO admission standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

In fairness to FSA, I don't believe they're comparing themselves directly to Harvard. I believe they're touting themselves as a superior flight school/academy, in comparison to comparable flight schools/academy's. To me, that's simple marketing and advertising, nothing overly nefarious or something criminal.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Of my 2 instructors, I knew more about IFR flying from my 61 experiences than one FSA instructor. So he put up a defensive attitude about it and our relationship went south. Just because someone was hired by FSA doesn't mean that they know their stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally speaking (and, of course, this isn't all inclusive), you'll tend to find the "new grad" CFI as a CFI at an academy. These guys with little experience themselves, teaching the rote basics of flying from their book knowlege to newbies. Is this necessarily a bad thing? No. I mean, you have to start somewhere. And in fairness to 141 schools, there are some experienced CFIs, there obviously has to be. But I wouldn't dump on 61 schools. They generally will have experienced CFIs, as well as some inexperienced ones. So, it depends on, like Kell and I said before, who you have as an IP, moreso than where you attended.

[ QUOTE ]

3. Of these resources that you mention, I found these to be BS-smart marketing that you bought into.

Here's some examples: one chief pilot (former navy, male, older) insisted that coriolis effect could even happen to small bowls and when I question him because of something we learned earlier, he gave me a dirty look. We learned this from another guy who was a former meterologist said that it is an urban legend about c-effect and it only happened on large bodies.

Another example: another old timer (former FAA, pilot who was supposed to be on 707, crashed on takeoff simulated engine failure training, he tells everybody this story) had us for two sessions in which all we did was do the gleim book. And we were paying $$$ for this!

The point is that the resources that are so touted of the big 141 are just smart marketing. You find the same people at both types of schools, it's just that the big schools make you think that they are better. I'm not saying that the pilots think they're better, just that they want you to pay a premium for a product, and to do this, they have smart marketers and flashy ads that make people think that FSA = Harvard.

[/ QUOTE ]

And advertising is a large part of the academy business. It has to be. There are competing academy's in a niche market, trying to convince people to spend top dollars in a very hurting job market.

[ QUOTE ]

4. Oh yeah, the prices are a ripoff too.

[/ QUOTE ]

They definitely are up there. Whether you're truly getting what you pay for, is up to the individual.
 
[ QUOTE ]
AGI/IGI/MEIGIAGIGI....


Yeah, I got em, don't use em anymore, but I got em....

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, i figured you would have listed that in your signature. Thats awesome That you got your IGI too. I got it as well.
 
Re: CLR4ILS

Alchemy, don't worry about pleasing anyone other than yourself in avaition. Yes, you may have used the guides of others to start your career. But don't be suprised from this point on that no matter what you do in aviation, someone will hate you for it. Most pilots are egotistical morons that think thier way is the only way to go about doing things.

Some of the professional pilots on this thread disgust me, they forgot thier roots, they forgot that at one time they were low time pilots, staring into the sky wanting to fly that bigger airplane. Every pilot goes through this stage. Anyone who denies it is either a liar, or someone who only does thier job because it's the only thing they ever could suceed at, but don't really have a passion for.

There are opportunities available now for low time guys that didn't exist in the past. Any low-time pilot would be a FOOL not to accept a job flying a glass-cockpit airliner, just because his "peers" don't think he is ready. You are as ready as you think you are, prepare and always be the best pilot you can be in the given situation. Listen to those who are willing to teach, not willing to put-down at the expense of filling thier egos.

Don't go through life wondering what to do to please others, do what you want to do. If other people don't like it, screw em'.

People called me an idiot when I left a regional for flying 135 Freight. But 2 years later, those same people are calling me asking me for a job since in that time I gaines well over 1000 PIC Turbine and 2 type ratings. Now I fly 727's for a 121 Non-Sked with ok pay and QOL.

Yet people are calling my company a "bottom-feeding contractor" because we don't get paid UPS or FedEX rates. Do I care? Hell no.

I go home on my company paid for ticket and play golf, and hang out. Life is to short to worry about what some screename thinks about me on a message board.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Well it looks like your $80,000 FSA "education" has served you well, you arrogant pr*ck.

[/ QUOTE ]

FSA is a technical school, nothing more. I hate that people compare it to an education of any kind. You will find scum in every butt crack and every job. I say that it's best to live and let live, but also to set a tone for this board. I have lurked on this board since 2001, and noticed that you find the same distribution of types of people here as anywhere else. I've learned that flying isn't filled with the "noble" people I thought it once was, but people have some control here and should voice what kind of board they want this to be.

While it's true that in the end, only YOU matter, shouldn't everyone at least conduct themselves with the "noble" ideals that you have? And before anyone says no, should our role models be jerry springer guests?
 
Re: CLR4ILS

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's just frustrating for us regional newhires on the board to see that we're not pleasing the guys we looked up to when we started this whole aviation gig.....Doug, MikeD, DE727, A300capt, these are all guys I admired back when I was a student pilot in 2001 and still do. We all read your bios and saw what you did, doug and A300capt both flew for the regionals and I had always figured that was the next logical step for me after instructing. The opportunity came and I took it...

I don't really take this stuff personally, and yeah, I realize that the regionals are the "minor leagues" of aviation and that I'm flying a "crap plane" for "crap money" (at least that's what I'm told), but I never got so much flack back when I was CFI'ing in a tin can for even less. The level of animosity toward regional pilots is baffling at times, but understandable at others. I guess the better the position you're in, the more you'll find people taking shots at you. It's just odd that I seem to need to feel guilty about being happy with my job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have any animosity against regional pilots. I personally think it's sorry that they get paid as low as they do for what they do, and it sickens me that the industry is such that they get taken advantage of by the management as they do. However, that's the job end. As pilots, I have no problem with them at all. Every regional flight I've ever taken, I got from point A to point B safely and comfortably.

Regards the "logical step" you talk about, I agree with you. Regional is the obvious logical step to the airlines, no doubt about it. The only thing I have problems with are individual pilots, not pilot groups as a whole........every pilot group (mainline, regional, military, CFI, etc, etc) has it's share of good people and bad people.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well it looks like your $80,000 FSA "education" has served you well, you arrogant pr*ck.

[/ QUOTE ]

FSA is a technical school, nothing more. I hate that people compare it to an education of any kind. You will find scum in every butt crack and every job. I say that it's best to live and let live, but also to set a tone for this board. I have lurked on this board since 2001, and noticed that you find the same distribution of types of people here as anywhere else. I've learned that flying isn't filled with the "noble" people I thought it once was, but people have some control here and should voice what kind of board they want this to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I edited for a reason.
 
Re: CLR4ILS

[ QUOTE ]
Clr3ils, I did my training at 2 different FBOs, both part 61 and 141. The training was fine and I was happy. I went to FSA and was unhappy.



[/ QUOTE ]

I did my PPL before FSA at an FBO. The training didn't even come close to FSA. Been there done that twice.


[ QUOTE ]
Of my 2 instructors, I knew more about IFR flying from my 61 experiences than one FSA instructor. So he put up a defensive attitude about it and our relationship went south. Just because someone was hired by FSA doesn't mean that they know their stuff.


[/ QUOTE ]

BS FLAG....theres no way you "a student" knew more than two CFI"S that went through strict standardization and numerous check rides/orals before they could instruct.

I WILL BET.... you showed up to FSA with your bad FBO piloting habits THINKING you knew everything and the instructors kicked your a$$. That is when you developed an attitude and your relationship with 2, yes 2 instructors went south. I have seen it before.

As for the rest...I still call BS. Sorry you couldn't handle the dicipline that was required at the school..

ILS
 
Re: CLR4ILS

I am curious what a 600hr cfi who meets, say, ASA's mins should do? Not apply? Keep instructing for another 600hrs to get to 135 mins and fly single pilot night freight in old pistons?
 
Re: CLR4ILS

I don't know if some aspiring pilots understand the amount of debt they'll be getting into, and, more importantly, how long it will take them to pay off the interest AND the principal. Flying is inherently expensive, but that doesn't mean that you cannot get a quality education, all of your ratings, and a CFI gig for a fraction of what you might pay at large academia. Then again, if you're comfortable with $120,000+ debt and feel that the training is commensurate with the pricetag, by all means, go that route!
 
Re: CLR4ILS

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clr3ils, I did my training at 2 different FBOs, both part 61 and 141. The training was fine and I was happy. I went to FSA and was unhappy.



[/ QUOTE ]

I did my PPL before FSA at an FBO. The training didn't even come close to FSA. Been there done that twice.


[ QUOTE ]
Of my 2 instructors, I knew more about IFR flying from my 61 experiences than one FSA instructor. So he put up a defensive attitude about it and our relationship went south. Just because someone was hired by FSA doesn't mean that they know their stuff.


[/ QUOTE ]

BS FLAG....theres no way you "a student" knew more than two CFI"S that went through strict standardization and numerous check rides/orals before they could instruct.

I WILL BET.... you showed up to FSA with your bad FBO piloting habits THINKING you knew everything and the instructors kicked your a$$. That is when you developed an attitude and your relationship with 2, yes 2 instructors went south. I have seen it before.

As for the rest...I still call BS. Sorry you couldn't handle the dicipline that was required at the school..

ILS

[/ QUOTE ]

Most everyone else on here is scared to say it , but you are an idiot. Enjoy your Flight Safety T-Shirt and Mug.
 
Re: CLR4ILS

[ QUOTE ]

Some of the professional pilots on this thread disgust me, they forgot thier roots, they forgot that at one time they were low time pilots, staring into the sky wanting to fly that bigger airplane.


People called me an idiot when I left a regional for flying 135 Freight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not me.......since 135 freight was some of the funnest flying I've done in my time. Just the freedom of it, as well as the challenge.
 
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