How low can the mins go?

The operative phrase being "at its discretion". Who's to say whether AE will actually exercise said discretion? I doubt they're doing it yet....
 
Well, just think how much ME you'll have when that upgrade finally rolls around at Eagle.....

I think I'd stick it out and instruct for a longer while instead of jumping to Eagle and best case starting over again at another regional a year or so down the road.
 
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ATP and American Eagle have an alliance which allows Eagle to, "...at its discretion, reduce the total time to not less than 400 hours with a minimum of 200 ME PIC".

When I first read that, I was amazed. A few years ago, no one would look at you without an ATP and 300-400 multi. The times, they are a changin'!

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be read as "The bar is a lowerin", depending on one's viewpoint...
 
I don't like it. What a surprise....

We are inching closer to the European model of Ab Initio training and there is no reason for it other than for these big academies to come up with a new program to make a buck. I think the old way works just fine, thank you.

No matter how you train these guys, they will lack the real world experience to bring an adequate level of knowledge to the jet airline cockpit. They will need to be babysat for their first 200 to 300 hours. Yeah, they will do just fine in ground school and the sim but you can't train for the real world in a classroom.

There is no substitute for experience.
 
Welcome to an industry that instead of increasing benefits when the resume stack gets low, resorts to lowering the minimum acceptable experience level.

I apologize, in advance, to anyone's toes I step on!
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[ QUOTE ]
.

No matter how you train these guys, they will lack the real world experience to bring an adequate level of knowledge to the jet airline cockpit. They will need to be babysat for their first 200 to 300 hours. Yeah, they will do just fine in ground school and the sim but you can't train for the real world in a classroom.

There is no substitute for experience.

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But DE you don't know what you're talking about.... I went through a CRJ sim course at XXX school for 15 hours, I don't need no experience, I'm just as good as any 2000 hour pilot because of my training!
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Wonder how may are really thinking that very thing after reading your post......*sigh*
 
[ QUOTE ]
We are inching closer to the European model of Ab Initio training and there is no reason for it other than for these big academies to come up with a new program to make a buck. I think the old way works just fine, thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, didn't all the major airlines have their own ab initio programs back in the early 1960s? Only difference now would be they'd expect us to pay for it.
 
some of these low timers won't be able to upgrade because they won't meet the 250hr PIC requirement for the ATP rating
 
I was riding on US Airways Express on business and the F.O. comes up to me and asks what our mins are at Airnet, QOL, etc. I tell him and ask why he's looking at cargo now after being in a jet...he says he has a wife and 2 kids and can't afford to work there anymore (Mesa, just in case you're wondering; not bashing, just informing).

I ask him how much time he has and he says 1000TT...he's been there for 7 months. I didn't bother asking what he had when hired because it scared the crud out of me as it was. I know how little I know and how much I learned as a CFI, and now in the cargo world, and it's just remarkable. He must've just finished his Comm, ME, and then F.O.

For those that are looking at this drooling about flying shiny jets at that few of hours, without any real experience, I hope you really think of what you're career path might be. This guy will never get hired at Airnet due to him having all the jet time and no piston time, no real CFI experience, only as a button pusher. Why don't they just instruct for a few hundred hours and build their time and experience???

Baffling...</endrant>
 
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some of these low timers won't be able to upgrade because they won't meet the 250hr PIC requirement for the ATP rating

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Or some other people *I* know that were unofficially on the upgrade list but not offered because they didn't have the 1000 turbine their company requires.
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some of these low timers won't be able to upgrade because they won't meet the 250hr PIC requirement for the ATP rating

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With all of that money they'll be making as an FO, they can rent airplanes to build PIC...heheh. Pilots are overpaid and underworked, right?
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G
 
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...didn't all the major airlines have their own ab initio programs back in the early 1960s?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not a valid comparison. Most of these guys were trained to be FEs and flew the panel for a decade before becoming an FO.

Regional pilots think it is great to get hired below 1000tt. Now they are complaining that the pay is lowering (commensurate with experience). You can't have it both ways. If you bring little experience, they give you little pay.

Unfortunately, until a passenger dies the minimums will not stop lowering. In my opinion, if you dont have 2000+ you don't need to be in a jet.

Take a look at the Pinnacle crash. The Capt had 150 PIC in the jet and the FO had 700 TT (hired at 540tt). Neither had a clue what they were doing to themselves. Thankfully no passengers were subjected to this accident.
 
At 400 hours, I would not want the job. I would rather gain experience 135 first and later when getting the regional job, set myself up to succeed and upgrade to captain rather than possibly f*&k up on the line.
 
I belive Eagle already has a 400hr agreement with FlightSafety's direct track program. Don't know why you'd bother, get an extra 200hrs and apply without forking out all the money.

Oh and to answer your question, technically as low as 160hrs flight time
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Take a look at the Pinnacle crash. The Capt had 150 PIC in the jet and the FO had 700 TT (hired at 540tt).

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The captain had 6700 TT.
 
Snow, it was a rhetorical question, but thanks for the info!
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160? I don't care how much of a hotshot pilot one is; there is no way I'd feel comfortable flying pax, using CRM, sequencing an approach, etc. etc. with that kind of time!

Baby steps!
 
From a safety standpoint, the training depatrments should take care of this. You simply need to make training thorough and difficult enough to weed out pilots who can't hack it, wether they be 10,000 hour or 500 hour pilots.

Yes, I was hired into the right seat an RJ with less than 1000 hours and no prior turbine experience, but I didn't attend a "pilot factory". There were 4 or 5 of us with under 1000TT in my newhire class of 31. The lowest time pilot, who had about 500 hrs, didn't make it through IOE. The training was good, therefore I felt competent during IOE and my first few months on the line, yet I was aware of my inexperience and solicited as much advice as I could from the captains I flew with. Yeah, I made some mistakes and I'm sure the captains weren't thrilled with having to hold my hand through routine stuff at first, but hey, you get what you pay for. Guess what the regoinals are paying for right now with $20/hr FO wages? Sub-1000hr pilots.

From a standpoint of "what's good for the profession", RJ's, or even regional flying at any level probably should never have been taken away from mainline and outsourced to B-scale pilot groups like my own. If that were the case, you'd still need a college degree, at least a few thousand PIC, and an ATP before you ever got into the right seat of a jet. However, I can't blame low time pilots for taking these jobs as as soon as they meet the mins. Seniority means so much, and I just can't see someone passing up a regional job to "build character" instructing while their couterparts are accruing seniority while making just as much, if not more money in most cases.

Even with the mins at 400 hours, it will still be necessary for the average pilot to instruct before they can qualify, even if they just do it for just a few months. And keep in mind this is eagle we're talking about....very few people will touch that place for fear of an 8 year+ upgrade or possibly being furloughed if something happens at American.
 
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