House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole

Typical gov. They make a bill to counteract the problem of insufficient piloting skills yet they put an out for people that don't have experience but have money to pay a college flight program. I hope this "out" won't be a big one.

Still this is the right direction to hopefully raise the salaries and quality of our profession. It will be very hard for airlines to demand lower pay for new and current pilots when there are qualified pilots that know their worth in the cockpit.
 
I like the college loophole because it gives me reassurance for people like me who are paying our own way through college with student loans. Try paying a 1000 a month for the 5 years living on a CFI or other low time pilot job pay.
 
The loophole thing is retarded. This just means everyone is going to go to ERAU and UND and those kind of schools, major in flying, then have no backup when the crap hits the fan.
 
Clocks said:
So an industry of high school grads is perfectly fine with you? In that case regional pay is right where it should be.
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Are you trying to say that because you went to some 4 year school you are any better of a pilot then someone who did not, any more of a professional?

Some of the best pilots I know, some of the most professional people I know, are not 4 year college graduates. Professionalism is not bought with a degree folks.
 
machnumber said:
Are you trying to say that because you went to some 4 year school you are any better of a pilot then someone who did not, any more of a professional?

Some of the best pilots I know, some of the most professional people I know, are not 4 year college graduates. Professionalism is not bought with a degree folks.
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A 4 year college graduate could probably tell that no, that's not what he's trying to say. A college graduate could also probably tell you why the logic you used to support your position "Some of the best pilots I know..." doesn't quite work.

Hint: Think big picture.
 
Pilots should have 4 year degrees, as should any professional. Professionals demanding professional compensation should meet the standard of professionals. And one of those qualifications (in my opinion) is higher education.

But please disagree with me. One less person competing for a job at the numerous companies with that little checkbox on their job applications. Tell you kids too!

I'm done hawking over this thread. I've been trying to avoid sitting in a traffic jam on the way home...but I think I'll just go sit in it anyways.
 
jhugz said:
Look into the UAW on that one champ. Those guys make 50k to start while screwing in lug nuts on an assembly line.

We possess a trait. We are being hired on that trait not on our college degree as you may think. The college degree is one of the dumbest hoops to jump through in the industry.

I have about 9ish classes left in my BA in Aviation and it has taught me practically nothing. It was an absolute joke.
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What "trait" are "we" being hired on?

Or did you mean "skill?"

What school is this you're attending where you're learning nothing?
 
I never went to a college flight program I did all my ratings through a FBO but from what I have seen flying with college flight students is this. They lack the real world experience that FBO guys get. They are told where and when to go on cross countries. Their hands are held the entire time. I recently flew with a guy who is new to our airport because he came from a college flight program and was scared to land on our 2400 foot runway because he college never let them go into anything this small. Now from a airlines prospect that is fine. But college flight progam students miss out on alot of real world flying. No real grass strips. They can't wake up at 3am and go fly just for the hell it like I used to when i was younger. Plus one the big things is that the most experienced instructors are at the FBOs. At a FBO you have the oppurtinty to learn from a guy who has been doing this a very long time. Not some college kid just passing the time. I'm not saying that college programs arent good. Because some of them are very good. But you miss out on alot of good experiences that you can only experience at a small FBO with a seasoned instructor.
 
Another thing about this is it is going to cripple alot of students by making them get a degree that is WORTHLESS. The airline dont care if you have aviation degree and if you ever loose your medical your SOL because a aviation degree is worthless in the business world.
 
Jbroz04 said:
I never went to a college flight program I did all my ratings through a FBO but from what I have seen flying with college flight students is this. They lack the real world experience that FBO guys get. They are told where and when to go on cross countries. Their hands are held the entire time. I recently flew with a guy who is new to our airport because he came from a college flight program and was scared to land on our 2400 foot runway because he college never let them go into anything this small. Now from a airlines prospect that is fine. But college flight progam students miss out on alot of real world flying. No real grass strips. They can't wake up at 3am and go fly just for the hell it like I used to when i was younger. Plus one the big things is that the most experienced instructors are at the FBOs. At a FBO you have the oppurtinty to learn from a guy who has been doing this a very long time. Not some college kid just passing the time. I'm not saying that college programs arent good. Because some of them are very good. But you miss out on alot of good experiences that you can only experience at a small FBO with a seasoned instructor.
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I landed on multiple grass strips, landed on a 2410' runway, and my commercial instructor had been there for years.

Your experience at the FBO is not unique to FBOs.

Bad college programs exist, and bad FBOs exist, and good college programs exist, and good FBOs exist.
 
Jbroz04 said:
Another thing about this is it is going to cripple alot of students by making them get a degree that is WORTHLESS. The airline dont care if you have aviation degree and if you ever loose your medical your SOL because a aviation degree is worthless in the business world.
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My 4 year degree in aviation got 3 different jobs outside the airline/flying world. It is actually how I saved up to become an airline pilot.

Ignorance is bliss though.
 
I have a 4 year degree from a fairly competitive real actual big boy college. I'm glad I do, it improved the quality of my interior life tremendously. However, as far as I can tell, it has had little or no impact on my ability to fly airplanes.

Flying airplanes is techne, quite literally a technical skill. It's a truism that technical skills are best learned by doing them. Would you seriously take your car to a mechanic who had tons of classroom instruction over one who had years of experience working on cars? Perhaps a medical doctor who had an extra two years of med school, but no residency? If you say you would, you're lying.

I don't care what you think you're owed, or how wise you think you are after Advanced Human Factors 15. If you're under around 1000 hours, you're a beginner, and you basically have no idea what the hell you're doing.

Is time an absolute indicator of skill? Of course not. But it's a damn sight better indicator than a degree from a puppymill or a burning sense of entitlement based on "investment". Go practice wearing a uniform in front of a mirror or something or, God forbid, close mouth, open ears, and learn something.
 
Clocks said:
Bad college programs exist, and bad FBOs exist, and good college programs exist, and good FBOs exist.
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Absolutely. Which is why it's ludicrous to give special treatment to aviation program graduates.

Boris Badenov said:
I don't care what you think you're owed, or how wise you think you are after Advanced Human Factors 15. If you're under around 1000 hours, you're a beginner, and you basically have no idea what the hell you're doing.

Is time an absolute indicator of skill? Of course not. But it's a damn sight better indicator than a degree from a puppymill or a burning sense of entitlement based on "investment". Go practice wearing a uniform in front of a mirror or something or, God forbid, close mouth, open ears, and learn something.
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:clap:
 
Like I said I never did any flight training with a college program my information was based off the few kids who transfered to skypark after leaving college programs. And I'm not talking a few years of experience. my instructor who took me all the way through CFI has been a CFI since 1982 and is a A&P also. I would be shocked to find a CFI of that level at a university besides maybe the cheif but again I may be wrong and if I am please correct me. Speaking 2410 are you talking about skypark? I remember you saying you were a kent grad (I think) and I see their planes once in a while come over.
 
As far as a aviation degree it would be tough to get a job with a Foturne 100 company without a true business degree or MBA. I'm not talking a small operation. I'm talking about getting a job that could lead to six figures in the business world.
 
RWH1986 said:
I like the college loophole because it gives me reassurance for people like me who are paying our own way through college with student loans. Try paying a 1000 a month for the 5 years living on a CFI or other low time pilot job pay.
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I pay my own rent, training, so on and so forth. I work as a CFI making 15k a year if I'm lucky. W/ winter coming up I doubt it though. I want something better to go to then a FO job still making 15k a year because all the Riddle and UND grads are just happy to be there flying a shiny jet.

jynxyjoe said:
Hard to teach someone who already knows everything.
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Relax champ...never said that. What I did say or am trying to say is that a college degree does nothing, zero, nada for me in the cockpit of a cessna let lone an rj.

Clocks said:
Pilots should have 4 year degrees, as should any professional. Professionals demanding professional compensation should meet the standard of professionals. And one of those qualifications (in my opinion) is higher education.

But please disagree with me. One less person competing for a job at the numerous companies with that little checkbox on their job applications. Tell you kids too!

I'm done hawking over this thread. I've been trying to avoid sitting in a traffic jam on the way home...but I think I'll just go sit in it anyways.
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I am getting the degree for just what you said, the little checkbox. I'm all for raising standards and wages however it should be done at a company level not a college level.

Ian J said:
What "trait" are "we" being hired on?

Or did you mean "skill?"

What school is this you're attending where you're learning nothing?
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Mountain State University.

Let me just clear up what I said. I'm learning all kind of stuff at the college but pretty much none of it being helpful to myself in the cockpit.
 
Boris Badenov said:
\
I don't care what you think you're owed, or how wise you think you are after Advanced Human Factors 15. If you're under around 1000 hours, you're a beginner, and you basically have no idea what the hell you're doing.
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Agree. Being able to successfully get guys through initial SIC training and out on the line <1000hrs shouldn't be the rule....

While at the gym today I was thinking....The current crop of 600hr --->Regional pilots are like people on American Idol. Sure, maybe they put out the album, do a tour and make some money. But there's something about the guy who played in garage bands, moving up to small town venues, etc who then makes it big that I prefer. Like the pilot who gets his ratings and then bounces around a bit on his own before making it to an airline.
 
Jbroz04 said:
Like I said I never did any flight training with a college program my information was based off the few kids who transfered to skypark after leaving college programs. And I'm not talking a few years of experience. my instructor who took me all the way through CFI has been a CFI since 1982 and is a A&P also. I would be shocked to find a CFI of that level at a university besides maybe the cheif but again I may be wrong and if I am please correct me. Speaking 2410 are you talking about skypark? I remember you saying you were a kent grad (I think) and I see their planes once in a while come over.
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FWIW, I was a Kent grad and we had the freedom to go to skypark. Now I did the college program, and there is no way I was fit to be a 121 FO after graduation. I learned how to fly and make decisions CFIing. They should write that in as a pre-req to gettin a 121 or 135 gig.

I guess that just goes to show you the power of special interest groups in washington.

Hopefully babbit will see give college grads a credit of lets say 20 hours towards the 1500
 
Loophole = retarded.

Everything else, very much welcomed and in a sense needed for the long term success of the profession.
 
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