House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole

Why does everyone have to be forced down the same path?

Lots of pilots are lobbying to force people to instruct before they join an airline. They succeeded and now most people are going to have to suffer through that for 1250 hours at a minimum. Fine I can deal with that, more experiance leads to better pilots.

Now people are trying to force pilots to get a college degree as well? That piece of paper has zero bearing on how well you will perform in the cockpit. I would take a guy who has 1500 hours over a guy who has 500 and a college a degree any day. If they are equal candidates other than the degree and hours.

If someone wants a degree to improve their chances at getting a good job at a major then thats great. But dont try and force someone to have a degree to get a regional/135 freight level job.

Getting a degree does not make you a better pilot nor a better person. It just means you were able to get through 4 years of college and earned a piece of paper for your trouble.
 
After reading these last few pages, I would like to add something. Disclaimer: I am not personally pursuing a career in the airlines (nor do I have any future plans to do so), although I do have a 4 year degree (chemistry), as well as being a CFII/MEI. Now, in non-aviation fields such as chemistry, often times jobs require degrees to get hired, BUT if a person has a specific amount of time working in that or a similar career (and yes oftentimes you can work your way up if you can get a foot in the door or happen to know someone), an employer overlooks the lack of a degree due to the fact that this person has proven they can be a professional and handle this type of work. So my question really is, shouldn't there be some point at which the lack of a degree ceases to matter? I mean, let's look at Joe Schmo. Say he has spent the last 3000 hours and 5 years flying around for a (respectable) 135 company base in New England, but flying throughout the US. He has plenty of mountain flying, plenty of winter and thunderstorm flying, maybe even plenty of time spent dealing with passengers. Personally, I would prefer to hire him than Tom Schmuck, who has no real 'professional' flying experience, but does have a 4 year degree. If this were a person's first non-CFI job, yeah, I definitely think asking for a degree is legitimate, but in my opinion, at some point (where the candidate has a reasonable amount of PROFESSIONAL work experience) the lack of a degree should stop being an impediment.
I guess my original question (a couple pages ago) was really asking if this is ever taken into consideration - and I would imagine it would be more of an issue with somewhere like Southwest or Delta than with a place like Eagle, but it's really more of a general question about any of them.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
What do you expect from a Republican? The sooner pilots realize that the Republicans are out for the corporate interests and not for labor, the sooner we'll start to get this profession out of the gutter. Thank God for Chuck Schumer in the Senate.
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Actually it's not just Republicans anymore, many Democrats also only look out for their lobbyists or are just semi- interested in what the average citizen wants. Congress just loves the fact the average American isn't smart enough to realize who really controls them these days.
 
Nah, this bill will put more experienced pilots into the right seat but I seriously, seriously doubt it will raise wages at the regional level. UNLESS, the 1500-hr requirement discourages enough potential pilots who wouldn't mind working for KFC wages from pursuing this path and thus creating a bona-fide pilot shortage, OR there is a steep and sudden explosion in demand for air travel (tell all your friends and family to buy tickets on your airline:)).

As for the college degree requirement, I think the real reason why airlines have it is to thin the stack of pilot applications, and it also shows that a pilot can set goals, accomplish something and has quantifiable learning abilities. And besides, a college education (in something useful and doesn't put one in 100K of debt) should also be personally edifying. Knowledge is power. So yeah, it seems to me that the ATP minimums requirement is largely a step in the right direction for this wretched industry.

Cheers!
 
Ian J said:
I see in your profile you live in SOCAL, so I picked Cal State as an example.

Cal State in-state tuition for one year: $3078.

Or more realistically, with tuition, books, and fees it would cost you $6227 a year.

Part time employees of the school get two classes per term for free.

Working part time as a pizza deliverer would pay for this.

The total cost for 4 years is... $24,908... for parents that's just over $100/ mo stuffed in a mattress for 18 years. Or, more realistically - $55/ month invested in a growth mutual fund averaging just 8%.

This is what really gets me when people criticize people when their parents paid for their college, or assume mommy and daddy are rich. Sometimes they are (big deal), but most likely, many just save a little every month.

For your individual case, you may be right. I understand you took out a flight training loan for ATP... I assume the monthly payments are pretty high and aren't negotiable. As you can see... being in a large amount of debt can really restrict your freedom.

Pretending you didn't take that loan out, you'd have plenty of options to come up with six grand a year for four years.
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Huh...:whatever: Another monday morning QB. There is one specfic reason why I attended ATP, and one alone. Going from turning wrenches, to flying airplanes, while having a family, absolutely requires a quick transition. I will be 31 in March. When I was in my early twenties, I didn't have the choice to go to school. I was out on my own when I was 19, in a career that *required* Mon-Fri 8 to 5 no exceptions. And in CA, the cost of living, for me, was too high. I just woulden't have been able to attend college and get a four year degree, while supporting myself. A two year would have been feasible. I could have gone at night. But a four year, at the Cal State level, when I was in my twenties, was not an option for the night stuff. Now that I am in my early thirties, yeah, I wish I could have gone. And on CFI pay, I can't afford it. I do have a sizeable amount of debt now, but hopefully in the comming years, I'll be in a position to go back to school, be it on-line or whatever. We'll see where this road takes me.

As for the sector of the industry I want to be in, the airlines is not it. So the degree really won't matter too much. I have enough connections that I will not need one. I just have to wait for a position to be open. As soon as it is, I'm in like Flynn. But, like everywhere else, they have f*ed pilots. So, I bide my time and wait.


So, next time before you go off on some rant about how someone financed their training, because you don't care for the school they went to (which is obvious by the posts you have written in your past), consider the circumstances. I chose to leave a career I was making good money at, to persue what I consider "my true calling." How many people have the gall to do that, and do whatever it takes to make it work? I have made many sacrafices to get where I am at today, and I know there are many more to come.
 
MikeD said:
I don't know. I don't think Schumer is any more a savior than, for example, Orrin Hatch would be.
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Don't you be baggin' on my boy Orrin or I'll have to open up a can of whoop-ass....wait, what am I saying? I hate Orrin Hatch! You may proceed. :D
 
mshunter said:
Huh...:whatever: Another monday morning QB. There is one specific reason why I attended ATP, and one alone. Going from turning wrenches, to flying airplanes, while having a family, absolutely requires a quick transition. I will be 31 in March. When I was in my early twenties, I didn't have the choice to go to school. I was out on my own when I was 19, in a career that *required* Mon-Fri 8 to 5 no exceptions. And in CA, the cost of living, for me, was too high. I just wouldn't have been able to attend college and get a four year degree, while supporting myself. A two year would have been feasible. I could have gone at night. But a four year, at the Cal State level, when I was in my twenties, was not an option for the night stuff. Now that I am in my early thirties, yeah, I wish I could have gone. And on CFI pay, I can't afford it. I do have a sizable amount of debt now, but hopefully in the comming years, I'll be in a position to go back to school, be it on-line or whatever. We'll see where this road takes me.

As for the sector of the industry I want to be in, the airlines is not it. So the degree really won't matter too much. I have enough connections that I will not need one. I just have to wait for a position to be open. As soon as it is, I'm in like Flynn. But, like everywhere else, they have f*ed pilots. So, I bide my time and wait.


So, next time before you go off on some rant about how someone financed their training, because you don't care for the school they went to (which is obvious by the posts you have written in your past), consider the circumstances. I chose to leave a career I was making good money at, to pursue what I consider "my true calling." How many people have the gall to do that, and do whatever it takes to make it work? I have made many sacrifices to get where I am at today, and I know there are many more to come.
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Brother, I was just trying to help. I'm not ranting and I don't care what school people go to.

A lot of people don't know much about personal finance or financial planning so I'm simply sharing what little I know.

If you took it as criticism against you, my apologies. My comment about your loan for ATP was meant simply to illustrate how yes, it would be nearly impossible to pay for college while that loan was outstanding. I wasn't trying to beat you up personally for getting that loan.

I will always recommend people not finance flight training or college, but because I do does not mean I am "attacking" those that did. I'm providing an opinion simply so others may learn.
 
Maybe I missed this in the previous 150+ replies...

Is it 1500TT? or is it 1500TT plus ATP?

I know several instructors that have been instructing for several years that do not have the ATP mins because of the 500XC, etc.
 
Pilot0486 said:
Maybe I missed this in the previous 150+ replies...

Is it 1500TT? or is it 1500TT plus ATP?

I know several instructors that have been instructing for several years that do not have the ATP mins because of the 500XC, etc.
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(B) ALL FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS- Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that, after the date that is 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act, all flight crewmembers--

(i) have obtained an airline transport pilot license under part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
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The bold part
 
How am I supposed to obtain an airline transport pilot license? Do I need a JAA conversion, or is this paving the way for foreigners and their ATPLs. Lions, tigers, and bears! Oh, my!
 
(B) ALL FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS- Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that, after the date that is 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act, all flight crewmembers--

(i) have obtained an airline transport pilot license under part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
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Since the requirement is for all flight crewmembers to have an ATP, I can see the airlines only requiring an applicant to have ATP minimums and the written completed and they will then give you the checkride as part of your type ride. This saves people from having to spend the money on the checkride themselves.
 
subpilot said:
I can see the airlines...
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This saves people from having to spend the money
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Those two statements do not go together.

At best, the 'top' few regionals will provide the ATP ride to new hires. I honestly wouldn't even blink if some regionals made current FOs go buy them on their own if they haven't upgraded by the time the law goes into effect.

Maybe some day if there really is a pilot shortage the regionals will offer ATP rides to candidates as a way to "lower their minimums". Otherwise, you can be damn sure you wont be invited to an interview without your ATP 3 years after the law passes.

My 2 cents.
 
PGT said:
Good thing I'm exempt with the college loophole.
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Hopefully you're being sarcastic.

But if you're not and for other's benefit...no one knows if any type of college loophole will exist. The proposed bill says:

The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses ... to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement.

The "loophole" may be 0 hours, or 1000 hours. And it also doesn't exempt anyone from holding an ATP, it just provides a credit (maybe) towards the 1500 hour minimum.
 
Pilot0486 said:
That's crap!

I know an instructor that has been instructing for over 3 years that doesn't have ATP mins
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No, it's not.

Sorry your buddy doesn't fly more but that's not really relevant to anything. In fact, I might argue that the lack of flight-time over that period could make him less proficient than someone who has flown more in a shorter time span.

The name of the game is safety AND prosperity, not convenience and gee-whiz I fly a jet.
 
Pilot0486 said:
That's crap!

I know an instructor that has been instructing for over 3 years that doesn't have ATP mins
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I would have had ATP mins met in 1.7 years if it wasn't for me being in training at job I have now. I was hired as a CFI in July 2005 and I was I was invited to training at my current gig with 1206hrs in mid October 2006. I really wasn't one of those "time building" flight instructors either. I only focused on 2 or 3 students at a time.
 
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