Honest question

I wanted to go to a major, for all the same reasons everyone else does: money, prestige, glamourous overnites, hot FA's. Ah, the dreams of youth, unfettered by reality.
 
Patrick said:
Above all else, it's supply and demand. There are too many "qualified" (and yes, I use that term by it's bare legal definition) people for too few jobs. That causes downward pressure on wages. Combine that with the fact that many pilots will sell their grandmother's soul's for a chance to be an "airline pilot," and it exerts even more downward pressure.
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I think not having a good backup career is what is really doing it. If most pilots had a secondary skill (law/engineering/medicine/etc) that paid substantially better than flying, they would leave and do that instead. Pay would raises would be necessary to retain talent - like it is in other industries.

Flying isn't like that, though. How many people do you know who interview for an airline job and then turn it down over pay? I've turned down dozens of job offers in my life. Enough people do this, starting pay rates start going up.

The system as it is now, where seniority is everything, really doesn't help pilots as a whole. It encourages a selfish motivation to take a job you otherwise wouldn't.

And by the way, pilot pay generally isn't all that terrible. Some regional airlines maybe, but then again, don't work there. Measured as a percentage of an airline's operating cost - it is about half of what it historically been.

I think things will improve, 9/11, the oil spike, the flood of pilot mill guys and the recession put things where they are now. By the way, I'm a big fan of requiring an ATP for all 121 jobs. It will help pilots, and improve safety. I can't believe I didn't kill myself when the ink was wet on my PPL, and I'm sure I'll say the same thing in 10 years when I look back on what I'm doing now.
 
skydog2 said:
I wanted to go to a major, for all the same reasons everyone else does: money, prestige, glamourous overnites, hot FA's. Ah, the dreams of youth, unfettered by reality.
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Heh, hot F/As. I've seen more of those at Skywest on any given day then I've seen on all the majors on every flight I've taken combined. With all the furloughs, it'll be a while.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
How many of you started flight training with the singular goal of making it to a major airline?
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I began flying with the intention of being a professional pilot.
I had several ideas in mind, and being an airline pilot was high on the list.
I understood that I needed to be flexible, and open to opportunities that I hadn't anticipated. Of course, by the time I decided to become a professional pilot I was in my 40's so I had some real life experience to base my decisions upon.

The odds for me to have the career I have were amazingly slim...lucky I don't worry about the odds.
 
mrivc211 said:
We all know the numbers. Theres no need to plaster it in front of our faces.
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You may know the numbers but that starry eyed potential future pilot may not. No doubt if they came on board "crying" about the industry everyone would say "oh but you should have known what you were getting into."
 
A-300F4-622R said:
How many of you started flight training with the singular goal of making it to a major airline?
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I never had any plans to fly for an airline. Thought I might end up flying in the Air Force, but I was honesty more concerned with my engineering degree at the time. After all, they were paying for it - wanted Uncle Sam to get his money's worth. The AF didn't work out for me, but I did end up getting a PPL - mostly because a fellow cadet was getting his.

I've lined up some CFI work, and will be doing glider tows for a while. Still keeping my day job, no plans to go to an airline. But who knows, if the market changes, I just might reconsider.

By the way - a question for the airline guys. How much complication does being in the ANG add to your job? I'm trying to get back in with a guard unit, but it will really piss off my employer with scheduling.
 
vikingair said:
You may know the numbers but that starry eyed potential future pilot may not. No doubt if they came on board "crying" about the industry everyone would say "oh but you should have known what you were getting into."
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This board has saved my education, my money, my parent's money, and the bank's money from going to a "aeronautical university" and I'm highly thankful of that. It really started when I was 16 when I started my PPL training and started looking at that school and some other schools. Thankfully I ran across this board and discovered that that was maybe not the best route for ME. After being in the flying community and on the forum for the past couple of years I realized that becoming a Captain for a Major was just getting harder and harder to get to, and the pay was only getting smaller.

I absolutely love flying but just as embraer07 said: "A love of flying will not pay my bills. Neither will pretty sunsets, pretty uniforms, or any of that other stuff."

So I found another career path that I love just as much, is just as exciting and the pay is much more. Now I can own a plane, fly when I want to, take who I want, and go where I want. However, the dream of getting a corporate flying job is still near the top of my list. Just my .02 and story.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I never had any plans to fly for an airline. Thought I might end up flying in the Air Force, but I was honesty more concerned with my engineering degree at the time. After all, they were paying for it - wanted Uncle Sam to get his money's worth. The AF didn't work out for me, but I did end up getting a PPL - mostly because a fellow cadet was getting his.

I've lined up some CFI work, and will be doing glider tows for a while. Still keeping my day job, no plans to go to an airline. But who knows, if the market changes, I just might reconsider.

By the way - a question for the airline guys. How much complication does being in the ANG add to your job? I'm trying to get back in with a guard unit, but it will really piss off my employer with scheduling.
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Tell your employer to choke on this...

http://www.esgr.org/userra.asp
 
I know there is one lawsuit out there on the hiring (or lack of) current guard members. It MAY affect your ability to interview and be hired by an airline, but once there they HAVE to comply. Depending on the airline, they will pressure you into submitting your orders as early as possible and will give you a hard time with short notice orders, but they will end up giving you the time off as much as they don't want to.
 
I did a BFR for a retired UPS Captain today and throughout the flight we each made several remarks about how things have changed. He agreed that getting on with UPS was next to impossible and didn't argue when I said it was likely I'd never fly anything larger than a Citation.


The fact is our industry is in a sad state and it isn't likely to get better thanks to SJS.
 
Bumblebee said:
I never worry about odds. I feel that if I want something, I can find a way to get there. If I don't get there, I'll at least be getting somewhere. Not just staying static; at least growing while trying to achieve my goals and dreams.

There are opportunities you hope for and expect , and there may be even better opportunities you don't expect. Some folks will prevail and some will not. If you consider that life is a journey then there is no wasted time.


This is a good way to look at life.
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I will agree that this site has really opened up my eyes to how things really are at the airlines. I never really had the intention of wanting to fly for the airlines but this site really turend me off. Mostly because the money sucks. I make more now at 21 with a bachelors degree than I would if I got hired at a regonal and have 5 years senority. I love to fly and I will always fly in some sort but more and more I think it will be on a part time basis. Thats kinda of why I got into gliders. I figure it i can be a cfi and in both airplanes and gliders than I will always stay busy as a part time cfi while working my regular job. Right now I'm kinda in limbo though. I am young and I was the one who said 72000 isnt that bad. But I look at what my dad makes and what I'm used to living like and 72000 wouldnt be fun at all in my 30's. Right now I'm working on my masters and in two years when I'm done with that I will have to make a decison as to whether or not I will try to fly for a living and more and more I think the answer will be no. The industry just isnt the same as it used to be. But I do think that being a part time CFI and being able to own my own airplane will keep my flying bug satified.
 
esa17 said:
I did a BFR for a retired UPS Captain today and throughout the flight we each made several remarks about how things have changed. He agreed that getting on with UPS was next to impossible and didn't argue when I said it was likely I'd never fly anything larger than a Citation.


The fact is our industry is in a sad state and it isn't likely to get better thanks to SJS.
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I know some Citation X drivers who make as much if not more than a pretty senior captain at UPS or FedEx. Its all how you play the game and move up.

I entered aviation with the goal of being a professional pilot. I always thought that meant going to an airline. But somehow I ended up in the 135 world and then private aviation and I never looked back. To me this is the pinnacle of aviation. I live abroad, travel to different places all of the time, and find challenge in what I do. It may not be for others. I am based overseas in Moscow but fly "N" registered planes. I work 40 days on and 20 days off. This schedule is great for me but others may not be able to handle it. While the pay may be great out here, starting captain is $180,000/yr, the distance from ones comfort zone may be to much. Sometime a spouse can't handle being away from family and such. There are many things to consider when thinking of being based internationally. In terms of salary though this shows that there are places other than the legacies which pay a fantastic salary and provide in what I think as a wonderful life style. Again, others may not agree.

We are a small flight department. No unions, no grievance process. We pretty much take care of things ourselves and it seems to work very well. A pilot problem has never gotten to an owner, as we clean up our own messes. We all are close friends, we work together, party together, get in trouble together, and most importantly make sure none of us screw anything up together. We police each other. Almost like living in a small town. Some people may like this type of environment, others may not be able to operate in one.

Point that I am trying to make is that a coveted position is different for different people. I sometimes think of my desire to fly a 777 or similar, but in reality I am making more than many captains on a 777 flying a Challenger 300 around, and most of my income is tax free. Everyone needs to survey their personal situation, find the true goal which they are after, and pursue it. At the same time build a protective barrier in their current situation in which to survive. Never give up on a dream. You only have one shot at life. Before this job I had many which were horrible but it all set the foundation for where I am at and now I am in a position to try to make this place the opposite of all of the horrible places. When you take your shot at life, remember when you miss the goal sometimes you are setting yourself up for victory elsewhere. Just keep chugging along.
 
How do they do things in Europe? Are pilots there slugging through low wages at "regionals" dreaming of getting to BA or something one day? I'm just curious to see how other parts of the world are doing in airline aviation.
 
deek said:
How do they do things in Europe? Are pilots there slugging through low wages at "regionals" dreaming of getting to BA or something one day? I'm just curious to see how other parts of the world are doing in airline aviation.
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To be honest I don't fully know how European carriers do things. I know they have ab inito programs and such. Like I said, we are a corporate flight department and fly USA "N" registered airplanes. All of the pilots here are American. Also, we have never ran an ad for a pilot. We simply call our friends and hire them or a friend of a friend. We have found the quality of person and pilot to be higher and attrition has fallen dramatically. We have to invest a lot of money to bring someone out here. Last thing we want is for them to get homesick and leave.
 
deek said:
How do they do things in Europe? Are pilots there slugging through low wages at "regionals" dreaming of getting to BA or something one day? I'm just curious to see how other parts of the world are doing in airline aviation.
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Europe seems to be a lot better. Forum member IcarusGR can tell you some great stories about airline flying in Europe. Apparently it's not unusual for someone with 350 hours to get hired into an A320 FO slot at around US$80,000. Regional airlines are seemingly getting big over there as here in the US, but their starting wages are significantly better than American regionals. Of course the pilot supply in Europe is significantly smaller than in the United States because it can be prohibitively expensive to learn how to fly without sponsorship. A guy I once knew in the UK was looking at paying around US$20,000 for just his PPL.
 
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