Honest question

[ppragman]

And remember, the majors are not the end-all be-all pinnacle of aviation. There are a good number of aviation jobs that pay equitably and are a heck of alot more fun, IMO. Just know that you have a fork in the road career-wise, and are not stuck on a one-way street.

That's exactly right. I've heard of some lodge jobs where you can make 50-70k in the summer, then have the whole winter off. Those are definitely uncommon, but they do exist. I think the problem lies in the idea that you have to keep moving up. There is no up, just different gigs that may or may not be better.

 

[ppragman]

The more I see of the American airline industry, the more I want to fly overseas for a foreign company. But you can never say never because you just never know where you might end up down the road. Part 135 used to really appeal to me (and it still does for the most part), but I like airline benefits. I grew up with them, still have them while in college, and really don't want to have to do without them if I can help it. I love to travel and flying benefits are hands down one of the biggest perks that the bargain oriented traveler can have.

For the Pilot, those Benes are available anyplace that is a CASS participant. Hageland aviation mostly flies caravans and 207s, yet they're fully cass approved, Airnet was cass, more places than you think are cass.

 

[scramjet]

For the Pilot, those Benes are available anyplace that is a CASS participant. Hageland aviation mostly flies caravans and 207s, yet they're fully cass approved, Airnet was cass, more places than you think are cass.

That's interesting. I had heard that before, but I wasn't exactly sure what CASS was. I thought that it was just a jumpseat thing. Do those benefits apply to spouses and family of pilots at those companies as well?

 

[OldTownPilot]

That's interesting. I had heard that before, but I wasn't exactly sure what CASS was. I thought that it was just a jumpseat thing. Do those benefits apply to spouses and family of pilots at those companies as well?

NO.

You also as far as jumpseating goes, need a reciprocal agreement with the other airline ON TOP OF being in CASS. CASS is only to allow those that have agreements to be able to access the cockpit jumpseat. It does not automatically grant access to any CASS jumpseat, contrary to one freight pilot belief that I had to deal with a couple of years back.

 

[mikecweb]

For the Pilot, those Benes are available anyplace that is a CASS participant. Hageland aviation mostly flies caravans and 207s, yet they're fully cass approved, Airnet was cass, more places than you think are cass.

Kinda.
CASS allows you in the cockpit. A jumpseat agreement allows you on the plane.

 

[jynxyjoe]

In response to the OP: Right now I'm paying my bills and there is a woman in my life that I love I see on my days off. I don't really wanna want to think about the next step anymore. If I can just get back to the left seat and get ahead on my savings again and build up some cash for some things I'd like to do to the house I'll be dancing.

Years back, in '03 I refused to get in this industry because you were either begging for a CFI job or paying for a job somewhere. I made good money as a dispatcher and I made very good money as a EMI technician. If I get furloughed I can go back to that or a number of other jobs I can still do.

I'd like someday to fly something in the right seat for way more than I'm worth, and I'd like to preflights and have the nose of the plane be higher than I can touch. No idea how to get there. Money is the only thing that is important to me these days. I could care less about the majors.

If I can find a 60 or better a year job flying a King Air solo I'll take it.

 

[ppragman]

That's interesting. I had heard that before, but I wasn't exactly sure what CASS was. I thought that it was just a jumpseat thing. Do those benefits apply to spouses and family of pilots at those companies as well?

No, afaik, cass is for the crewmember only, that being said, if it only costs you 800 to take your wife to europe, I can't see anything wrong with that. Lot's of guys commute around these parts, so CASS is a cockpit or cabin thing. As far as I'm concerned, the bush has about the best scheduling, and pay imaginable. Many of those companies work you 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, with full jumpseat to and from work. You can live basically wherever you like provided you can get to work on time (not that hard if you've got CASS). Also, you make decent money. About $40k your first year and up. There are guys who are easily making $100,000 per year at these places (I believe that the captains in the 1900 are making 400/day at some of these places). The problem is that it pays this well for a reason. Better have some stick and rudder skills, otherwise you need not apply, and judgement is also a must. You also typically have to live in Bethel for your hitch, and bethel is the armpit of the of the earth. Its a great way to make a living.

 

[ppragman]

Kinda.
CASS allows you in the cockpit. A jumpseat agreement allows you on the plane.

Good point, however, I don't know any of my buddy's who've had a hard time getting on flights to anywhere they want. A good friend of mine at hageland spent a hitch a few hitches back in cancoon, then in the bahamas, all thanks to the magic of jumpseating. Most of these places are approved at most of the big carriers.

 

[skydog2]

My question is since it apparently looks so bleak for a regional pilot to ever make it to a major, is working at a regional knowing that still worth it? Or do you think that you will be one of the lucky ones to actually make it?

Do you hope to get growth at your regional so you can upgrade and get the turbine PIC, knowing that growth at the regional diminishes your chance of making it to a major or do you want to slug it out as a F/O and hope to see some growth at the majors, hoping that by attrition, you will eventually upgrade?

I think your question is one that can only be answered within the context of an individual's circumstances.

First, it depends on what you define as "worth it." I left Air Wisconsin (and the industry, and the profession) after 7 years because I came to realize that my frustrations had nothing to do with my earnings or earnings potential, but rather lifestyle. I'm not speaking of the "gone-all-the-time-living-out-of-a-suitcase" lifestyle, (althought that was part of it too), but rather the realization that as long as I continued in this industry/profession, I was always going to have to worry about layoffs, bankruptcies, starting over, etc.

Now, to a certain extent, this is a reality that exists for all professions. But I think you would agree it is more prevalent in this one than a lot of others. I can't tell you how many of of co-workers were "unrooted" people; avoiding putting down any kind of roots (getting married, buying a home, having a family, whatever) because they were always concerned what might happen with their job and their career. I was one of them. I came to realize that I did not want to live the rest of my life that way. Flying for a major doesn't insulate you from that, as the guys at United and others have learned.

Perhaps if the wages were what they once were it might have been a little easier to take, because at least then I could have been saving money to weather those setbacks. But while regional wages provide a fine living (yes they do, despite what some people say), it is not enough that I can save a bunch of money in the short term.

So to answer your question, there is nothing about going to the majors that would have made it "worth it" for me to stay in. In fact I even did the math one time. I compared going to United vs. staying with AWAC, on a monetary basis. Using the worst case scenario it would have taken me 19 years to get to break even considering lost income because of starting over at the bottom. So I what have been in my mid-50's, with only a few years to go (this was pre-age 65). Just wasn't worth it.

 

[DeuceOfAces]

My question is since it apparently looks so bleak for a regional pilot to ever make it to a major, is working at a regional knowing that still worth it? Or do you think that you will be one of the lucky ones to actually make it?

Do you hope to get growth at your regional so you can upgrade and get the turbine PIC, knowing that growth at the regional diminishes your chance of making it to a major or do you want to slug it out as a F/O and hope to see some growth at the majors, hoping that by attrition, you will eventually upgrade?

It seems to me that regional pilots are in a Catch-22 situation. If they want to go to a major, they need regionals to stop expanding. That leads to a less upgrade opportunities and a poorer QOL. If they want to upgrade quick and have a better QOL, that means that the regional is growing at the expense of mainline and that diminishes their hope of making it to a major.

Do you guys still have the mindset that YOU will be the exception and make it to a major when all the signs point to you NOT making it to major? Or have you resigned yourself to a life at the regionals and hope to make it a better place to have a career, even if it takes away flying from the majors?

I'm asking this question with no agenda. It's something that I'm genuinely curious about.

Awesome insight there. Can't have more regional jobs without reducing the likelihood of getting on with a major. There are many more pilots at regionals than there are at the majors and I think it will always will be that way...

I think I've found an answer to the dilemma. The key is for a pilot to make their talent internationally portable. They should get on with a regional and upgrade into an aircraft type that will allow them to get hired somewhere that needs expatriate pilots in regional aircraft (the Embraer's seem better for this than the Bombardier's). They'll earn as much as they would at an American legacy and oftentimes expat salaries are tax-free! Remember to keep an eye on the Indian and Chinese aviation markets.

Case in point: Salary over there versus salary over here.

Monthly guarantee is 75 hours.

Minimum Requirements:​

• 500+ hours PIC on type
• Current on type within 12 months
• 3000+ hours total time
• Must be under 53 years of age
• Valid/current ATPL issued from a country that has diplomatic relations with the Peoples Republic of China
• Valid passport issued by a country that has diplomatic relations with the Peoples Republic of China
• Valid/current Class A (First Class) Medical
• No history of incidents or accidents. Must provide a letter from your current/previous employer.
• ICAO Level 4 (or equivalent) English proficiency
• No criminal history. Must provide a notarized and authenticated proof of no criminal history document from your home country government AND the government of the country you reside (if applicable)
• No license limitations

Domicile: Tianjin, China (close to Beijing)
Compensation: $112,800 USD/year (net)
Contract Term: 2 year initial / Renewable at 1 year increments
Benefits:

• Salary: $9400 USD/month (net)
• 30 day of paid personal leave per year
• 8 Hard Days off/month
• Salary paid offshore. Expat tax benefits may apply.
• Optional global medical/dental heath plan (for pilot and family)
• Flight benefits on Hainan Group

Bonus:

• After completion of 1st year - $5,000USD (net)
• After completion of 2nd year - $10,000USD (net)
• After completion of subsequent years - $15,000USD (net)

Additional Information:

• Chinese income taxes will be paid by Tianjin Airlines. Expat status may dramatically reduce your national tax liability. Consult your CPA for tax advice.
• International Medical Insurance Coverage is optional and will cover you and your family anywhere in the world.

 

[Boris Badenov]

$70 or $80k/year sounds like winning the lottery when you're 25. When you're a little older and are seriously considering the possibility of retiring before you die, raising healthy, happy, well-educated children, owning a home rather than a bachelor pad, and leaving some kind of legacy or at least having a nest-egg... well, it might be ok if your spouse earns a similar amount. Even then it would be tight.

This downward spiral of expectations is not unique to airline flying, or even to flying in general. It's the product of a very long slide in the real buying power of the "bottom 95%" of Americans, and the incredible ballet of debt creation and money manipulation danced by our Betters to turn up the heat just slowly enough that we don't notice until it's too late and we wake up in a Stalinesque apartment slab watching reruns of "Cheers", eating Soylent Green from WalMart, and reciting the Pledge of Corporate Affiliation with our chemically lobotomized, hopeless little future McDonald's employees in ecofriendly diapers.

Wake up. This is Feudalism, and you're a serf.

 

[Bumblebee]

$70 or $80k/year sounds like winning the lottery when you're 25. When you're a little older and are seriously considering the possibility of retiring before you die, raising healthy, happy, well-educated children, owning a home rather than a bachelor pad, and leaving some kind of legacy or at least having a nest-egg... well, it might be ok if your spouse earns a similar amount. Even then it would be tight.

This downward spiral of expectations is not unique to airline flying, or even to flying in general. It's the product of a very long slide in the real buying power of the "bottom 95%" of Americans, and the incredible ballet of debt creation and money manipulation danced by our Betters to turn up the heat just slowly enough that we don't notice until it's too late and we wake up in a Stalinesque apartment slab watching reruns of "Cheers", eating Soylent Green from WalMart, and reciting the Pledge of Corporate Affiliation with our chemically lobotomized, hopeless little future McDonald's employees in ecofriendly diapers.

Wake up. This is Feudalism, and you're a serf.

Funny, my wife and I were speaking about the current state of the workforce in the exact same terms recently. I think you are spot on, Boris:clap:

 

[Firebird2XC]

$70 or $80k/year sounds like winning the lottery when you're 25. When you're a little older and are seriously considering the possibility of retiring before you die, raising healthy, happy, well-educated children, owning a home rather than a bachelor pad, and leaving some kind of legacy or at least having a nest-egg... well, it might be ok if your spouse earns a similar amount. Even then it would be tight.

This downward spiral of expectations is not unique to airline flying, or even to flying in general. It's the product of a very long slide in the real buying power of the "bottom 95%" of Americans, and the incredible ballet of debt creation and money manipulation danced by our Betters to turn up the heat just slowly enough that we don't notice until it's too late and we wake up in a Stalinesque apartment slab watching reruns of "Cheers", eating Soylent Green from WalMart, and reciting the Pledge of Corporate Affiliation with our chemically lobotomized, hopeless little future McDonald's employees in ecofriendly diapers.

Wake up. This is Feudalism, and you're a serf.

I agree.. spot on.

Everybody should revisit the thread link below in my sig line.

The Regional Pilot Career Track is alive and well.

Watch as economic stagnation turns EVERY Regional career plan to the "Decade to Upgrade" plan....

It's not going to happen, it HAS happened.

Note Chasen's comment about Skywest captains.

Gee.. sounds a lot like Eagle. Hmm.

The Regional Airline world is NOT a transient career. Wake up and do something!

 

[killbilly]

$70 or $80k/year sounds like winning the lottery when you're 25. When you're a little older and are seriously considering the possibility of retiring before you die, raising healthy, happy, well-educated children, owning a home rather than a bachelor pad, and leaving some kind of legacy or at least having a nest-egg... well, it might be ok if your spouse earns a similar amount. Even then it would be tight.

This is very, very, very true.

$70K does not go nearly as far as it used to. You also have to remember that you jump into higher tax brackets when you make more...and the gov does get its pound of flesh.

 

[SteveC]

Yup, I have some friends that went back to corporate...

Maybe that should read "...friends that moved up to corporate..."

 

[embraer07]

More importantly, it would take you 10 years or more to even begin making $70k a year. At that point you would more than likely have multiple children, a wife, a house, etc....

In the mean time you are struggling to make ends meet on $20k to $55k a year. That is a long time to go making so little.

My best friend is 28, does not have a college degree, has no formal training of any kind yet he makes $80k a year and will top $100k next year as an IT person for Blackberry.

Then I think of people like us. College degrees(for the most part) highly specialized training(Commercial Pilot, Flight Instructor, ATP, etc...) Think of all the hard work that went in to acheiving all of that. Think of all the late night study sessions, the sacrafices, the hope of a better life....

And all we have to show for it is a salary equal to that of a McDonalds assistant manager? Meanwhile people like my friend are going to top $100k just because he knows about system networking???

There is something seriously wrong with this industry and the wages we make. Too many people are willing to go to places like Great Lakes or Cape Air because they dangle PIC time infront of them.

I don't know anymore. I LOVE flying and all I have ever wanted to do was be a pilot. But when I think that it will take me over 10 years, if I'm lucky, before I am making even $70k I get very discouraged. A love of flying will not pay my bills. Neither will pretty sunsets, pretty uniforms, or any of that other stuff.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

And all we have to show for it is a salary equal to that of a McDonalds assistant manager? Meanwhile people like my friend are going to top $100k just because he knows about system networking???

Well, there are about 270,000 commercial & ATP pilots in the US. There are probably about 30,000 mainline pilot jobs. So, either a substantial increase the the number of aircraft, or a reduction in the number of pilots would imply some improvement.

Then again, for quite some time the number of aircraft has been increasing, the number of certificated pilots decreasing, and wages declining. Airline pay seems to have little to do with supply and demand.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm

 

[Patrick]

It all has to do with valuation. There's no fair or unfair bit about any of it. 40 years ago, pilots were valued, and worshiped like Gods. Most had paid their dues for it, too, as there were no "zero to hero in 6 months" pilot mills. People- both airline management AND the public- valued pilots, and they were paid and treated very well.

Today, we're simply not valued, either by the public or, especially, airline management. The public thinks of us as bus drivers (and nevermind the fact that most bus drivers are paid better), and airline management has quickly figured out that if there are pilots willing to work for less that they'll certainly take advantage of that.

Above all else, it's supply and demand. There are too many "qualified" (and yes, I use that term by it's bare legal definition) people for too few jobs. That causes downward pressure on wages. Combine that with the fact that many pilots will sell their grandmother's soul's for a chance to be an "airline pilot," and it exerts even more downward pressure.

Look at this from a different light. I used to own a restaurant. We paid our dishwashers $10 an hour, because, frankly, you can't find anyone who doesn't suck who will work for anything less. Now, believe me, if I had a guy come in, who had a dishwashing license, had been to dishwasher school, and who was willing to PAY ME $10 an hour for the "privilege" of "gaining experience," that I'd jump on that in a second! Look at the parallels, and then you begin to understand why our profession is where it's at.

Also note, that this phenomenon is not solely limited to aviation, but is rearing its ugly face in many professions, and this is a long term problem that this country has to solve if we're going to have any hope at future stability.

For me, I love flying airplanes, and I still have some hope for the dream of making decent money, sooner than later, flying airplanes for a living. At some point, however, you have to be realistic. I have multiple skill sets, and if I can't make enough money here, I'll make use of those other skills where I can.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

How many of you started flight training with the singular goal of making it to a major airline?

 

[ChasenSFO]

How many of you started flight training with the singular goal of making it to a major airline?

I did. Its always where I wanted to end up at some point in my life. It is still where I want to end up, but in the meantime I'd like to do as much flying as I can as take whatever oppertunities I get. 135, banner towing, CFI, all that stuff looks like a whole lot of fun. While I'm still young and single living at home with just myself to support, I'd like to do as much of that kind of stuff as I can until down the road I get an oppertunity to get into the airlines.

This is why I haven't acted upon an oppertunity I have in Manila to become a Philippine Airlines cadet. First off, it would involve getting married and moving to a different country I know little about, but my main concern is QOL. I love to travel and when you're in CASS, you can get pretty much anywhere anytime. The flight bennifits are a huge bennifit to me. Over in Asia there isn't anything similar to CASS from what I've heard, you can jumpseat on your own carrier but if you want to fly on anyone else you have to pay for a ZED ticket and hop in the back.

Besides, I still may end up going into the Military, there are just FAR too many paths when you're young and low time to limit yourself to one career track. Too bad a lot of people don't see the big picture.