Hiring tracking (opposite of furlough tracking)

ATN_Pilot said:
This has nothing to do with being non-union. Sure, I also despise VX because of that, but that's beside the point here. :)

Sitting in the right seat of an airliner may be great experience over a period of many years, but it's still not the experience of being the guy in charge making the tough decisions. With all of the highly qualified pilots out there with TPIC, there is absolutely no reason to hire without it at a mainline carrier, unless your carrier is just so crappy that none of those highly qualified pilots want to come there.
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Yeahhh...

PIC is important for a pilot's developmental process, but it does not automatically make you more qualified to do the types of flying you'd do at a Legacy carrier. You have a very limited skill set with your background (which is fine), but like I said, first day on a 767 will make you understand why domestic RJ PIC does not make you more qualified than an experienced international FO, who may not have any TPIC at all.
 
If I could interrupt here for a second. Quick question for Todd and completely off topic. Its just a general dumb question. Whats is going to happen to the the 717 captains at Air Tran once the planes leave?
 
nc1982 said:
Sad, a few years ago, this website was a great place to come for good info. Now, we have to weed through the alpa vs. non-alpa, "my airline is better than your airline, my penis is bigger than your penis" fights before we get real info. How is it any different than APC or flightinfo.com.
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I don't see that this is the bulk of the discussion here at all. I much prefer the conversation and participants here than at either APC or FI.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It's not about stick-and-rudder skills. It's about decision making experience.
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I am staying clear of most of the frag pattern of this discussion, as I have zero experience in a 121 cockpit.

That being said, it is always important in a discussion like this to recognize the difference between these two things Todd has posted: airmanship and monkey skills.

Airmanship, and its associated skills (like judgment and decisionmaking) are the aggregate of all a pilot's experience and is something that is developing and maturing throughout a pilot's life. Airmanship is not something that can ever be taught academically; it inherently requires experience ("air under your ass" as we say in the military fighter biz) to develop, and the more the better. Pilots with more experience, and more diverse experience, generally have better airmanship. Airmanship is entirely portable between airframes, jobs, and sectors of the flying industry. It is a pilot's "clue bag" that he brings with him from job-to-job.

Monkey skills are the physical stick-and-rudder abilities to maneuver the aircraft. Those skills are usually very quickly and easily learned (the reason why a pilot can initial solo in 8 or 9 hours), and don't generally require a whole lot of insight about "the bigger picture" to be good at. One can be a great stick-and-rudder pilot and not necessarily have great or even good airmanship. Pilots with more experience are generally better stick-and-rudder pilots, and can generally physically fly their aircraft to a higher degree of percision/accuracy, but not necessarily.

IMHO, these two aspects of an aviator have to be contemplated individually as well as in aggregate.

4-year degrees and 1000 hours TPIC are simply two measures of types of experience that build airmanship. Someone has decided that they like the type of airmanship exhibited by pilots with that type of experience, and thus many have made it a requirement.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It's not about stick-and-rudder skills. It's about decision making experience. I agree that there are plenty of FOs out there without an hour of TPIC who are better sticks. But by the time someone gets to a mainline carrier interview, it's somewhat assumed that you have basic stick-and-rudder skills pretty much down pat. What matters is having had the experience of being the guy who has to make the tough calls.



No, I don't have a degree. I've got most of my credit hours done, but I never finished it up. As far as your argument about a degree showing the ability to stick to an agenda, etc., that may be a good argument for why an entry-level carrier should require it, since you don't have work experience by that point, but it doesn't work as a good argument for a mainline hiring criteria. By the time you get to your mainline applications, you've likely already been through a couple of airline training programs, if not more, you've passed multiple checkrides, you've had a lengthly work history that will be checked with your past employers, etc. The degree isn't really needed to see if someone has the aptitude for airline employment.
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I guess that is my whole point... There's a whole other thread on this forum about "know it all FO's etc" and the common theme in that is most Captains would prefer a person who has an opinion on things, knows what they are doing and are ok being the person who is SECOND in command..... I would think that many after spending nearly five plus years due to 65 in a right seat might be able to make GREAT First Officers and assist a Captain at a major regardless of what plane they fly. I mean at the end of the day we, even at a regional level, are doing the same exact thing when we are moving people from point A to point B......I personally rather have the best PERSON for the job and would not say that the person with 5000 TPIC 7000TT is better off being a First Officer at a major then the guy who has 5000 SIC and 7000TT and has not had the chance to upgrade yet do to situations outside of any one persons control........

I will further that by saying USairways I know has actually taken a few more then many would expect new hires with lack of TPIC. They have also taken one that I know of with a DUI....... Should a DUI person never get that chance to move on as well as perhaps they lack good decision making outside of the cockpit but have 4500 TPIC? Point I am making is that the best applicant and the best person to spend a four day trip with who is competent and can make good decisions and has the right answers in an interview should be the one who gets extended an offer regardless of their TPIC..... We all know there are great CA's and terrible CA's.... Much like there are awesome FO's who would have made GREAT Captains but a time of shrinking happen left them in the right seat for a much longer time then expected.... Those same FO's would make the same GREAT FO's at Delta, UAL, Spirit, and or USairways as well.........
 
ATN_Pilot said:
This has nothing to do with being non-union. Sure, I also despise VX because of that, but that's beside the point here. :)

Sitting in the right seat of an airliner may be great experience over a period of many years, but it's still not the experience of being the guy in charge making the tough decisions. With all of the highly qualified pilots out there with TPIC, there is absolutely no reason to hire without it at a mainline carrier, unless your carrier is just so crappy that none of those highly qualified pilots want to come there.
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I agree TPIC is good and important, but again, not having that is not a personal fault. It's the industry stagnation. "Absolutely no reason to hire without it at a mainline carrier unless it's so crappy...." Are you serious? You do realize that VX has been home for those who had their careers ended at other ALPA carriers, right? I've flown with 20 year Aloha guys, Champion, ATA guys (lots of them), TWA, US Airways, and other union/non-union airlines like Skybus, USA 3000, etc.

VX still hires a lot more guys with turbine PIC than without, the majority of those being hired DO have TPIC time. Those without it getting called are either well connected, or did really well on the online assessment. It isn't so "crappy" and there are people with lots of TPIC time that do want to work here.

I expect them to either wait their turn or create another opportunity for themselves at another airline with a faster upgrade time. Of all people, I'm really surprised that you think a shortcut is ok.
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Wait their turn? At a shrinking and dying regional? Waiting my turn = furlough in 12-18 months. "Or create another opportunity at an airline with a faster upgrade time" means start over at the bottom of another regional making 20 grand again? No thanks, not if I can help it. And of course, the only regionals offering "fast" upgrades were GoJets and Silver, and do we really want to start a GoJets *******fest all over again?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It's not about stick-and-rudder skills. It's about decision making experience. I agree that there are plenty of FOs out there without an hour of TPIC who are better sticks. But by the time someone gets to a mainline carrier interview, it's somewhat assumed that you have basic stick-and-rudder skills pretty much down pat. What matters is having had the experience of being the guy who has to make the tough calls.
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Yes, but flight experience, even if it's right seat, still counts for something. I think any FO that has breached 4000-5000 hrs of total time can make tough calls too.

No, I don't have a degree. I've got most of my credit hours done, but I never finished it up. As far as your argument about a degree showing the ability to stick to an agenda, etc., that may be a good argument for why an entry-level carrier should require it, since you don't have work experience by that point, but it doesn't work as a good argument for a mainline hiring criteria. By the time you get to your mainline applications, you've likely already been through a couple of airline training programs, if not more, you've passed multiple checkrides, you've had a lengthly work history that will be checked with your past employers, etc. The degree isn't really needed to see if someone has the aptitude for airline employment.
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No, for an airline HR, that could be a potential red flag. It'd be one thing if you never even attempted college classes and just got the high school diploma only. But here is a candidate, who has put in the time, gotten most of the credits, but still hasn't been able to finish up a degree. It shows a candidate that has tried committing to something and has not been able to successfully complete it. Your aptitude for airline employment may be fine and healthy, but the problem is not being to finish an educational endeavor that you started.

When did Airtran last hire? 2007? The economy was ok before the recession, and the regionals had lots of movement so requiring 500 TPIC or more was the norm. Today you have guys through no fault of their own that have 4000-8000+ hrs of RJ SIC time, and the airline HRs are wising up to that and considering them too.
 
SeanD said:
If I could interrupt here for a second. Quick question for Todd and completely off topic. Its just a general dumb question. Whats is going to happen to the the 717 captains at Air Tran once the planes leave?
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Virtually all captains are getting bumped out of their seats, and "real" SWA pilots will take the upgrade slots. AirTran captains aren't allowed to re-upgrade until 2015, even if their seniority can hold it (and not many can with the horrendous SLI). The only people who don't get bumped out of their seats are the ones senior enough to hold on until the very end and still be in their captain seat at AirTran when 2015 hits.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Virtually all captains are getting bumped out of their seats, and "real" SWA pilots will take the upgrade slots. AirTran captains aren't allowed to re-upgrade until 2015, even if their seniority can hold it (and not many can with the horrendous SLI). The only people who don't get bumped out of their seats are the ones senior enough to hold on until the very end and still be in their captain seat at AirTran when 2015 hits.
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If only you hadn't turned down SLI #1? Why ALPA carriers choose to go with pilots in negotiations is beyond me. There's a reason airline management hire outside professional negotiators.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I agree TPIC is good and important, but again, not having that is not a personal fault.
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I haven't called it a "personal fault," it's a deficient qualification. That's a significant difference.

Wait their turn? At a shrinking and dying regional? Waiting my turn = furlough in 12-18 months. "Or create another opportunity at an airline with a faster upgrade time" means start over at the bottom of another regional making 20 grand again? No thanks, not if I can help it. And of course, the only regionals offering "fast" upgrades were GoJets and Silver, and do we really want to start a GoJets *******fest all over again?
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We'll see what you think about your decision when VX goes under and you're on the street lacking any PIC time. Welcome to Silver.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
With their small narrowbody captain rate topping out at $124/hr, USAirways can't exactly get the cream of the crop nowadays.
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How exactly do you define "cream of the crop" nowadays? You'd be surprised how many RJ CAs and FOs have applied to US Airways. And being that the are the only legacy actively interviewing right now, people are trying to get in based on that fact and the retirement numbers alone over the next 10 years.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I haven't called it a "personal fault," it's a deficient qualification. That's a significant difference.



We'll see what you think about your decision when VX goes under and you're on the street lacking any PIC time. Welcome to Silver.
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So you wrote VX won't make it by the end of the year. I'll have some positive will power. ValuJet made it, and they didn't have nearly as good a backing as VX has. I'm enjoying the job and the quick movement, I sat reserve only one month before jumping into a regular line. If VX folds, so be it, but I won't be starting over at a regional (uness it's a DEC position). I'll take the Airbus type and time and apply elsewhere, legacies and LCCs here and airlines overseas. I'd rather exit the industry than start over at the bottom of a regional FO again.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
We'll see what you think about your decision when VX goes under and you're on the street lacking any PIC time. Welcome to Silver.
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He'll be fine.

You, on the other hand, are alienating thousands of professional pilots, including the website owner. Give it up.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
No, for an airline HR, that could be a potential red flag. It'd be one thing if you never even attempted college classes and just got the high school diploma only. But here is a candidate, who has put in the time, gotten most of the credits, but still hasn't been able to finish up a degree. It shows a candidate that has tried committing to something and has not been able to successfully complete it. Your aptitude for airline employment may be fine and healthy, but the problem is not being to finish an educational endeavor that you started.
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"Not being able to finish?" You have no idea what my situation is, yet you think you know that I "couldn't" finish? Sorry, but not the case. I was working towards the degree when AirTran hired me, and a little bit during my probationary year, but I decided during that year that if I lost my job at AirTran, I wasn't interested in starting over at another airline, so I decided not to finish the degree. My backup plan has always been the family business, which requires no degree, so continuing with the degree was a waste of money for me at the time. Now that I've got more disposable income, I've considered going back to finish it just to say I have it, but I haven't had the time yet. Maybe someday.

When did Airtran last hire? 2007?
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It was 2010, and we had roughly 15,000 applications on file, all of whom met the Part 121 PIC minimums.
 
dasleben said:
He'll be fine.

You, on the other hand, are alienating thousands of professional pilots, including the website owner. Give it up.
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Ah, I see. Everyone around here is free to trash PFTers, JetU graduates, and Pinnacle pilots who get Delta interviews without a degree to their heart's content, but how dare someone bring up requiring TPIC time! :rolleyes:
 
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