Hiring tracking (opposite of furlough tracking)

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Not obtaining TPIC was no fault of my own, it's just the way the cards playedout in the industry. You upgraded not because of more or better skill than I, but because your timing was right.

I don't care whose "fault" it is, the fact of the matter is that you don't have command experience. I think it's a reasonable requirement to expect that command experience for someone joining a mainline carrier.

And didn't you get hired at AAI without a college degree? OMG gasp what does that say about Airtran.

Unlike PIC time, a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airliner.

 

[lostplanetairman]

Spirit recently required an ATP and 4,000 hours and now have CHANGED it to 3,000 total hours. But have you comment on that? No, which brings us to our next point, Spirit is ALPA and your real disdain for VX stems from the fact they are non-ALPA.

As of right now, the highest published minimums for any Part 121 airline are at VX. An ATP and 4,000 hours total minimum, and "prefer" A320 type, TPIC time, and checkairman/instructor time.

So now we're into "My airline is better than yours?" Geez. We have more than 9,000 applicants on file and according to the genius on JC, a 2007 hire is a senior Captain. You are right. We won't get to fly the Galactic. You are better. Good day.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don't care whose "fault" it is, the fact of the matter is that you don't have command experience. I think it's a reasonable requirement to expect that command experience for someone joining a mainline carrier.



Unlike PIC time, a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airliner.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

It may be reasonable, but it's also unreasonable to eliminate candidates who have 4,000-7000+ hrs of SIC RJ time simply because the economy tanked. Luckily, we are fortunate that airlines agree with that, and therefore disagree with your philosophy.

You can fly an airliner without a college degree, and you can fly an airline without TPIC time. Notice I said TPIC time, not just PIC. Everyone has PIC time from their single piston days. Both Delta and Fedex disagree with you on the college degree thing, and require it for newhires. Similarly, SWA and Fedex also require 1,000 TPIC minimum.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

So now we're into "My airline is better than yours?" Geez. We have more than 9,000 applicants on file and according to the genius on JC, a 2007 hire is a senior Captain. You are right. We won't get to fly the Galactic. You are better. Good day.

No, you're reading into it wrong. I never stated an airline was better than another airline. I know better than to get into those silly (petty) arguments. The point I was driving at was that the ultimate reason ATNPilot holds a grudge against VX is the fact that it is non-union. Spirit had similar requirements for hiring pilots, and recently changed it to 3,000 and prefer 4,000. There is nothing wrong with that! I'm not drawing any conclusion against Spirit for that. Where are you getting your conclusion from? What I was saying is that ATNPilot ignores an ALPA carrier with VERY similar hiring requirements (Spirit) and chooses to bash VX for being non-union. When I wrote that VX has the highest published minimums, it was based on a factual check of legacies and LCCs that are currently hiring. It isn't to talk smack down on any airline. It's just that what ATNPilot is saying is contradicted based on facts of hiring requirements.

I hope that clarifies it up. I'm the last person who is going to get into a "my airline is better than your airlne" argument. That's not my neck of the woods.

 

[dasleben]

I don't care whose "fault" it is, the fact of the matter is that you don't have command experience. I think it's a reasonable requirement to expect that command experience for someone joining a mainline carrier.



Unlike PIC time, a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airliner.

So, "I got mine, and the rest of you can screw off," eh? Great leadership ALPA has.

I'm going to laugh when Delta and United start hiring guys without TPIC (and I'm sure they have before). TPIC does not make you better qualified for mainline employment.

 

[Hacker15e]

Delta and United both have far lower minimums, with Comm-Inst-ME ratings and 1,200-1,500 total time.

Those minimums have always been that way to allow for military fighter guys who get much lower total times over the course of their careers -- a guy who actively flies for 8-10 years may only get 1,500 hours total time since his flights are 1.0 - 1.5 at a time. All of it, however, is PIC turbine right from the beginning.

 

[kellwolf]

I don't care whose "fault" it is, the fact of the matter is that you don't have command experience. I think it's a reasonable requirement to expect that command experience for someone joining a mainline carrier.

So, guys like Doug aren't qualified for joining mainline?

Unlike PIC time, a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airliner.

TPIC is an HR requirement, not a training department or line requirement. It's there to reduce the number of applicants and can be dropped by HR at any time. Delta doesn't require it. Kinda like how a college degree reduces the number of applicants.

Again, how else do you think the otherwise well suited Pinnacle FOs are going to get their TPIC to finally be qualified for a mainline job? Go Jets or slug it out at Pinnacle for another 5-7 years before their "qualified for mainline?" I'd say a guy that has sat in the left seat for 10 years is about equally as qualified as a guy that sat in the left seat for 2 and the right seat for 1.

 

[jtrain609]

So now we're into "My airline is better than yours?" Geez. We have more than 9,000 applicants on file and according to the genius on JC, a 2007 hire is a senior Captain. You are right. We won't get to fly the Galactic. You are better. Good day.

Come on, isn't this what it's all about?

 

[meyers9163]

Todd....... I must say this is a first where you just are way off.....

 

[nc1982]

Sad, a few years ago, this website was a great place to come for good info. Now, we have to weed through the alpa vs. non-alpa, "my airline is better than your airline, my penis is bigger than your penis" fights before we get real info. How is it any different than APC or flightinfo.com.

 

[kellwolf]

Sad, a few years ago, this website was a great place to come for good info. Now, we have to weed through the alpa vs. non-alpa, "my airline is better than your airline, my penis is bigger than your penis" fights before we get real info. How is it any different than APC or flightinfo.com.

Site was a lot smaller a few years ago as well. I think this is a by product of more people coming to the site with more opinions. IMHO, it's not a bad thing as more people means more experiences at all levels of the industry. Thread creep is just a natural side effect of human communication. I don't think it's AS bad as APC, and it's certainly no where near the FI level of nuclear warfare and personal insults.

 

[meyers9163]

I don't care whose "fault" it is, the fact of the matter is that you don't have command experience. I think it's a reasonable requirement to expect that command experience for someone joining a mainline carrier.



Unlike PIC time, a college degree has nothing to do with flying an airliner.

Todd what is your deal here bud? There are plenty of FO's out there who I would much rather fly with then some guys who have this magic TPIC in which you think makes them better at flying an airliner..... Last I checked TPIC has nothing to do with how one can fly an airliner either...... It has more to do with proving in a training environment you can make the decisions in which an examiner at the time agrees with and thus is willing to sign you off on to then go and do such...... Just because one can pass a checkride does not mean they have exceptional piloting skills by any means....

A college degree for the most part means you were able to stick to an agenda, meet various standards by MANY different peoples standards over the course of such and did so to a level in which the University agrees you are worthy to graduate....... Also there is a lot to be said for sticking with something as far as education goes for the time in which it takes to achieve a degree.... Much is learned not only from the course work but the time in which it takes an individual to achieve that degree...... You personally do have a degree no?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

No, you're reading into it wrong. I never stated an airline was better than another airline. I know better than to get into those silly (petty) arguments. The point I was driving at was that the ultimate reason ATNPilot holds a grudge against VX is the fact that it is non-union. Spirit had similar requirements for hiring pilots, and recently changed it to 3,000 and prefer 4,000. There is nothing wrong with that! I'm not drawing any conclusion against Spirit for that. Where are you getting your conclusion from? What I was saying is that ATNPilot ignores an ALPA carrier with VERY similar hiring requirements (Spirit) and chooses to bash VX for being non-union. When I wrote that VX has the highest published minimums, it was based on a factual check of legacies and LCCs that are currently hiring. It isn't to talk smack down on any airline. It's just that what ATNPilot is saying is contradicted based on facts of hiring requirements.

I hope that clarifies it up. I'm the last person who is going to get into a "my airline is better than your airlne" argument. That's not my neck of the woods.

This has nothing to do with being non-union. Sure, I also despise VX because of that, but that's beside the point here.

Sitting in the right seat of an airliner may be great experience over a period of many years, but it's still not the experience of being the guy in charge making the tough decisions. With all of the highly qualified pilots out there with TPIC, there is absolutely no reason to hire without it at a mainline carrier, unless your carrier is just so crappy that none of those highly qualified pilots want to come there.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So, guys like Doug aren't qualified for joining mainline?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Derg was a captain at Skyway. He just didn't quite hit 1,000 TPIC, I believe. I'm not insisting upon 1,000. I just think someone needs that experience. AirTran's minimum was always 500 hours Part 121 TPIC. I think that was a pretty reasonable requirement, and it allowed a lot of guys who upgraded, got the captain experience, and then got downgraded before hitting 1,000 to have an opportunity. But I wouldn't argue with a carrier requiring 1,000, either. It's better than requiring none.

Again, how else do you think the otherwise well suited Pinnacle FOs are going to get their TPIC to finally be qualified for a mainline job?

I expect them to either wait their turn or create another opportunity for themselves at another airline with a faster upgrade time. Of all people, I'm really surprised that you think a shortcut is ok.

 

[meyers9163]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Derg was a captain at Skyway. He just didn't quite hit 1,000 TPIC, I believe. I'm not insisting upon 1,000. I just think someone needs that experience. AirTran's minimum was always 500 hours Part 121 TPIC. I think that was a pretty reasonable requirement, and it allowed a lot of guys who upgraded, got the captain experience, and then got downgraded before hitting 1,000 to have an opportunity. But I wouldn't argue with a carrier requiring 1,000, either. It's better than requiring none.



I expect them to either wait their turn or create another opportunity for themselves at another airline with a faster upgrade time. Of all people, I'm really surprised that you think a shortcut is ok.

No offense but is PFT not a short cut?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Todd what is your deal here bud? There are plenty of FO's out there who I would much rather fly with then some guys who have this magic TPIC in which you think makes them better at flying an airliner..... Last I checked TPIC has nothing to do with how one can fly an airliner either...... It has more to do with proving in a training environment you can make the decisions in which an examiner at the time agrees with and thus is willing to sign you off on to then go and do such...... Just because one can pass a checkride does not mean they have exceptional piloting skills by any means....

It's not about stick-and-rudder skills. It's about decision making experience. I agree that there are plenty of FOs out there without an hour of TPIC who are better sticks. But by the time someone gets to a mainline carrier interview, it's somewhat assumed that you have basic stick-and-rudder skills pretty much down pat. What matters is having had the experience of being the guy who has to make the tough calls.

A college degree for the most part means you were able to stick to an agenda, meet various standards by MANY different peoples standards over the course of such and did so to a level in which the University agrees you are worthy to graduate....... Also there is a lot to be said for sticking with something as far as education goes for the time in which it takes to achieve a degree.... Much is learned not only from the course work but the time in which it takes an individual to achieve that degree...... You personally do have a degree no?

No, I don't have a degree. I've got most of my credit hours done, but I never finished it up. As far as your argument about a degree showing the ability to stick to an agenda, etc., that may be a good argument for why an entry-level carrier should require it, since you don't have work experience by that point, but it doesn't work as a good argument for a mainline hiring criteria. By the time you get to your mainline applications, you've likely already been through a couple of airline training programs, if not more, you've passed multiple checkrides, you've had a lengthly work history that will be checked with your past employers, etc. The degree isn't really needed to see if someone has the aptitude for airline employment.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

No offense but is PFT not a short cut?

Of course it is! That's why I'm opposed to it. Haven't we been over this before?

 

[jtrain609]

Of course it is! That's why I'm opposed to it. Haven't we been over this before?

So you were for it before you were against it?



You're making this too easy!

Also, I don't think Derg got off high mins before he bailed.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

So you were for it before you were against it?



You're making this too easy!

Yep. Once upon a time, I was also a Republican. You do stupid things when you're young.

 

[kellwolf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Derg was a captain at Skyway. He just didn't quite hit 1,000 TPIC, I believe. I'm not insisting upon 1,000. I just think someone needs that experience. AirTran's minimum was always 500 hours Part 121 TPIC. I think that was a pretty reasonable requirement, and it allowed a lot of guys who upgraded, got the captain experience, and then got downgraded before hitting 1,000 to have an opportunity. But I wouldn't argue with a carrier requiring 1,000, either. It's better than requiring none.

IIRC Doug wasn't even off high mins when he got hired at Delta. (Edit: Ninja'ed by Train) So, less than 100. He wouldn't have even qualified for AirTran.

I expect them to either wait their turn or create another opportunity for themselves at another airline with a faster upgrade time. Of all people, I'm really surprised that you think a shortcut is ok.

So, go to a Go Jets or a Mesa. Seems odd that you would support airlines raising the bar professionally but want guys to go to a bottom feeder to get faster upgrade time in order to progress in their careers.

I don't see it as a "short cut." I just think that 121 time in the right seat isn't as useless as you think it is.