Hiring Grads?

I was asked this once ....

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"Tell me why I should stay out of aviation"

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That isn't a blanket statement.

Obviously a professional aviation career is the right way for some people!

I am disappointed at these large flight schools, mostly in Florida, that pump up the dream of being "an airline pilot." They make it sound prestigious and financialy rewarding.

The truth is that the first five years of my airline career nearly bankrupted me. I started as an FO for Eagle in Jan 1995. It wasn't until the year 2000 that I actually started paying off credit cards.

As for prestige, yeah well how much prestige does a bus driver have? Prestige is overrated.

Today's newbie pilot can no longer count on that six figure income at the end of the rainbow. If you can be happy making 60-70k as a regional jet captain in 6 or 7 years then I say go for it.

The downside, however, is huge.

1) You literally have no private life. You are under a microscope constantly. Don't have a beer at a social gathering without expecting to hear a bunch of "drunk pilot" jokes. Don't get any speeding tickets or your present job is your last one.

2) You are a slave. All the union contracts do their best to guarantee some time off but in reality you can't plan anything long term. You bid your schedule month to month and the schedules are sometimes good, sometimes bad. My vacation was cancelled 4 years in a row due to "staff shortages" even when we were furloughing! Don't forget that contracts go out the window when the "company is having financial difficulties."

3) You get treated poorly. Everyone tries to tell you what to do. ATC, Crew Scheduling, Dispatch, Flight Attendants, and even Rampers are all taught about "CRM" and they think it means they get to tell the pilots what to do. Most of the time it's funny but once in a while ....

4) You don't get home much. In spite of the belief that pilots only "work half the month" you spend most of your time commuting. Some guys try moving to the base and then whaddya know, the base closes or realigns and they go somewhere else. Commuting has gotten harder now that the actual jumpseat has been taken away. That was a good safety net there, as it was only for pilots.

5) You are hated by all. The lefties hate you because they think you are a "rich, spoiled pilot." The righties think you are a "union liberal." You can't win this one
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Now if you can put up with this the job isn't too bad. There are times it gets stressful but the stress ends (usually) on landing. You don't have to do too much homework except when training for a new aircraft or seat.

That one guy said I was a "motivational speaker" (images of Chris Farley as "Matt Foley, Motivational Speaker" leap to mind here) but that's not entirely true. I prefer Inspirational. Inspiration is a word that means "Truth from God" (Insert your deity as suits you.)

So call me a truth speaker. That's my goal. Obviously I fall short. That is human.

Thanks for listening
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P.S. Thanks Doug and 727 for the illuminating and supporting words. "rubber dog poopy" LOL!
 
Thanks John!

But I'm a little jaded today because you're absolutely right about being a 'slave' to the airline.

I'm going to spend the next 32 days trying to get my wife's birthday off for the first time in 7 years!

Or people always laugh when I tell them that I didn't know if I was going to make my own wedding until about a month prior -- I was dead serious.
 
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You go through the $$$ route, and take our jobs while we sit here twiddling our thumbs with 8000 hrs.

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That is one of the most ignorant statements I have heard yet. Why are they your jobs? You are just full of resentment, jealousy, and hatred.
 
"You are just full of resentment, jealousy, and hatred."

Resentment? Yes

Jealous? Of You? NO WAY lol

Hatred? That's a pretty strong word. Disgust fits it better.

I'm disgusted that someone thinks it's worthwhile to pay $50-75k so they can make $17k, with a chance (yes a chance) of eventually making $75k. There are a lot of checkrides and pitfalls between new hire FO and RJ captain. Every new hire class I was in had at least one person who didn't make it through ground school, and a couple always seemed to disappear during sim training.

I'm disgusted with the way young guys like you fall for the sales pitch that plays on your dreams. Please reconsider your words and actions.

"Why are they your jobs?"

Why are they yours? Who's more qualified? Me or you? You think Chuck Yeager was a great pilot at 350 hrs?


Doug, I fully understand the wedding situation. Happened to me even though I was #1 in seniority in base at the time. We were "shorthanded" so they called me a few days before and said I would be "on reserve" during my vacation. I said "Fine! You send the helicopter out to the boat to get me and pay me for my lost vacation and I just might answer the phone."

That was Air Midwest. The Mesa crew schedulers would never try a trick like that, at least the folks I worked with.
 
Hey Doug, John, and 727 thanks for the insight. Although I must admit that it really isn't helping me out with my decision right now. I really want to pursue a career as a pilot, but from reading your posts you make it sound as if you resent the fact that you ever became one. It also seems like the majority of the schools out there are full of it, so I am just having a tough time finding the right school for me. Now after reading your posts, it seems like you are persuading young, aspiring pilots to steer clear of the industry as a whole.
And John, I wasn't implying anything about your credibility in your career, I am simply saying that you are not inspiring me right now because I do not want to be an engineer, I want to be a damn pilot.
 
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I'm disgusted with the way young guys like you fall for the sales pitch that plays on your dreams. Please reconsider your words and actions.

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I have not fallen for any sales pitch. I haven't spent a dime yet. That is the whole point of being on this forum, to decipher all the sales pitches for myself. Please reconsider your words and actions . There you go again speaking out of ignorance. I thought you were a man of truth. How can you speak for me?

P.S. I am not so young either! If you are so disgusted with the industry, then why don't you change careers?
 
I don't understand...........If I can go to Mesa and pay just as much as any other school would cost and end up in the right seat after only 300 and some hours, then wouldn't that be great news for me. So maybe there are more qualified pilots out there right now, but how is that even slightly my fault if I get the opportunity over them. So I am confused, are you saying that I shouldn't try to get the job after 300 hours? Instead, should I wait and try to build up a couple thousand more hours, so I don't feel guilty about taking a job away from someone more qualified? I believe you need to take your opportunities when you can get them and there is no time to sympathize.
Also, John, you need to quit taking this elitist approach on all of your posts. Maybe, at home in Florida you are very credible, but on this website no one knows you apart form anyone else, except for the fact that you like nascar. So when you talk down to everyone in this forum, it only pisses people off, instead of having them respect you.
 
Guess I'll chime in here....
It is very discouraging to hear people like JT talk down about the industry. I like to hear other people's perspectives on the industry even if they are negative. I share JT's concern of "pilot mills" charging $45k for ratings and getting jobs with 300 hours. However, this is all a matter of simple economics and as long as there is a demand, well you know the rest....
Sounds like JT has nothing good to say about his job and that is fine. A lot of people (most people) do not like their jobs. This is just a fact of life. I have two uncles who are captains for United and USAir. They say they wouldnt do anything else. I am an engineer and my job absolutely sucks. I come to work every morning and spend a good 6 hours with nothing to do. I get paid well but there is nothing to look forward to. Perhaps JT is right....once I make it to a regional I'll be miserable but I can not imagine how anything could be worse than what I am doing now. Anything is better than flying a desk all day with nothing to do and I'll take my chances and find out for myself if flying for an airline is such a terrible occupation. In the mean time I will keep my engineering job, save money, and instruct on the side and hopefully be ready for a regional or freight in a couple years.
Best of luck to you all in pursuing your dreams...
 
Very encouraging Braidkid. That is my whole purpose in pursuing a career as a pilot, is to enjoy what I am doing for a living. Well good luck to you and everyone else who is trying to make it in a tough and sometimes frowned upon industry.
 
I'm not "down" on being an airline pilot at all. If I was, I sure in heck wouldn't use about 85% of my free time running an aviation website!
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Like I've always said before, I love the performance of my job, but it's very much balanced by all of the BS pilots have to put up with.

Remember, this website is about a 'behind the scenes' perspective. We've got everything from brand new solos, to furloughed pilots, to CFI's, to widebody captains giving out information, details and opinions.
 
Yeah I know. You got that old Flying Disease. Suffered from it myself.

The Disease causes otherwise sensible young people to do crazy things just to "build time" or "get in to a turbine" or to "log some jet."

Just be forewarned! The "Love for Flying" can eventually go away when you do too much of it! I know this sounds crazy to you right now, but look at the guys who are out there flying 100hrs a month. Most of them will say they would like a little less. Most of them. Not all
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My cycle was:

1) new job/position/aircraft psyched

2) finish sim training/check ride pumped

3) doing IOE thrilled

4) 3 months of this is cool

5) Gee when can I get some time off? tired

I honestly pray yours won't be the same experience.


10 most Famous Crew Scheduling Lies:

1) "There is no one else available."
2) "The contract says we can junior man you."
3) "You are supposed to be available 24 hrs a day."
4) "The Chief Pilot says this is ok."
5) "Legal to start, Legal to finish."
6) "They cancel our vacations, too." (and then they're gone next week)
7) "You need our permission to do anything like get married."
8) "Only a death in your immediate family counts. Not grandparents!"
9) "If you don't like it you can always grieve it."

and the #1 Crew Scheduling lie ... (drum roll)

10) "You think we like messing with your life like this?" (YES!
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Look I'm not talking down aviation! I love aviation.

This is just showing you the other side of being an airline pilot. It's not all cruising the malls in your uniform picking up high school chicks.
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And while I can't honestly expect someone with 300 hrs to turn down an airline job, I would like to see the FAA do something like require an ATP for both pilots. (Whoa this one will stir the fire ...) At least they'll both have 1500 hrs of experience.

I distinctly remember being a 300 hr pilot. I work with hundreds of 300 hr pilots at various levels. I would say that 50% of them are not ready to be airline pilots. I wasn't ready! Furthermore, about 10% of them will never be ready.

If someone makes it to 1500 hrs they have passed a few hurdles. It gives more of a chance to "weed out" those that just aren't called to be professional pilots. Not completely of course! I remember a few rare cases of pilots with many more hours finally realizing they were just not cut out to be captains.

The job isn't that hard, but it is terribly unforgiving if you make a mistake.
 
I respect your opinions John. As you know, the only way we will learn is from experience. Perhaps professional flying isnt all it's cracked up to be but I will have to find that out myself. So far instructing has been a blast but then again it's only my second week.
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Perhaps you could begin to share the positive things you enjoy about flying. What are some perks about the job you enjoy. There has to be some things you like about airline flying....anything? I don't think you would be on this board if you didnt still love flying. Afterall, I haven't found an engineering message board where people are pumped up and excited about becoming engineers!!
 
"Pumped up Engineers" Like Hans und Franz go to the nuclear plant?

LOL good one braid
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Lets see what do I like about airline flying.....

I like the people the most. Being part of a team that works incredibly hard against all kinds of opposition. I always look forward to seeing friends in the crew lounges.

I like the challenges of new equipment, routes, etc. It got kinda boring doing PBI-TLH over and over and over. Flying the NE corridor is a blast, although it takes patience. I even like the challenge of LaGarbage on a weathered in day.

I like the hi tech stuff. Having the FMS on the RJ and the B737 with all the tubes and screen magic is very cool. It takes longer to wear off than other things.

I love instructing! I love to see someone "get it" and move up to the next level, whatever that level may be. Sim instructing can be tough, I get so sick of "the box" but when someone figures out the flows on an RJ and the crew finally nails a Rt Eng Fire on TakeOff I am pleased.

I like the humor! I always listen for funny stuff on the radio. If you hear Beavis and Butthead on the radio I may be guilty
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My passengers have frequently told me I need to be a comedian, but they are a captive audience and easily amused. I tried stand up comedy a while back .... never again ....

I did a PA a while back, "Ladies and Gentlemen this is your Captain speaking from the pointy end of the airplane and we'd like to welcome you aboard XXXXX Express flt number, ah number, ah what flight are we again? Oh yeah 5626 with same day service to, let me see, where are we going again? Greensboro? Oh heck I thought it was Raleigh. Ok we still offer same day service to Greensboro. We'll be flying way up there, way higher than a kite. We'll be going unbelievably fast, way too fast to open the windows ok? We'll get there in a couple of hours or three or four. And on your way out please say happy birthday to "Turbo" our flight attendant. That's right, she is Turbo from the American Gladiators, she needs to moonlight there to pay the bills 'cause we don't pay nuthin' here! She can't remember how old she is but we think she's under 40 (Suzanne is in her late 20's) and she deserves a real hand for how hard she's working. Hope she brings us our meals soon! We'll talk to you when we get closer to Greensboro. Hey if any of you see us fly past it, please tell Turbo to knock on the door and wake us up, ok? Thanks for flying with us.


It's late and I'm sure I'll think of more things later.
 
Let's weigh thoughts.....on one hand we have two accomplished, veteran pilots saying how things really are and on the other hand we have a bunch of people wanting to get to their level saying, "You two are wrong about the industry you're in. I'm thoroughly disgusted by your bent up hatred, jealousy, blah-blah-blah".
All John and Doug are saying is that this isn't the glamorous profession so many perceive it to be. I also see people blasting other's experiences when they share the experience.
Take it all with a grain of salt and learn from others. I think I said enough....for now.
 
Sprint thank you.

I hope my remarks are informative and cause some reflection. If flying is your dream then go for it. If being a wealthy airline pilot with all the trimmings, dinner with the President, and a private life are your dreams then you may wish to reconsider.

Here's a word to commuter pilots now. You may want to consider staying where you are. No matter how bad it gets, the commuters seem to have the edge on the industry right now. Back in '99 and '00 a lot of our (Mesa) CRJ Captains took the plunge and jumped to USAirways. All of them are on the street. Brian, one of the best captains I ever flew with, has left aviation and is working for a beer distributor in N. Florida.

CRJ Captain is not a bad place to end up!
 
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CRJ Captain is not a bad place to end up!


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This is my ultimate goal. I would also like to end up with a good corporate gig if given the chance.
 
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All John and Doug are saying is that this isn't the glamorous profession so many perceive it to be

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Aww, don't worry. We were actually two weeks overdue for a "all you guys with real industry experience are full of crap" thread!
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Cyclical, the forum is.
 
I'll weigh in here... even though I'm not looking at San Juan College or going the "academy" route.

I'm going the "other" way that a lot of folks say "can't be done" = the FBO route. Why? Well, do a search on these boards and you'll find out. I won't rehash it here. They are MY reasons. Your milage may vary.
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I FULLY intend on instructing - for a while! For me, there is no other way.

And, despite all the negativity we see on this site and/or read in the paper, I'm still one of those crazy enough to keep plugging.

I'll admit that I've expressed my frustrations about the overabundance of the "down side" of aviation expressed on this site, BUT....

...that being said...

Here's a hint to those in my shoes: Just like your CFI - when someone who has REAL WORLD experience than you in the field that you endeavor to be a part of - LISTEN!!!

You JUST might learn something.

It's guys like Doug, A300capt, DE727UPS and, recently JT who take the time to share the "reality" of the industry.

I've always heard "to be forewarned is to be fore-armed" = meaning - don't go in with blinders over your rose-colored glasses.

Granted, I will not lie and say that I particularly LIKE to hear the "bad" side, but it exists whether you want to hear it or not...

Try to think of it this way - when you finally get "there" and reality sets in and you wake up and think "crap, here we go again. Gotta go to work" That's when you'll think of John and Doug and the rest and think "I should have listened".

I'm rambling, but what I'm getting at is keep going towards your goal, but realize that it's NOT all violins and champagne. Be prepared for the "real" side of it - the time away from home/loved ones/birthdays/holidays/anniversaries/little-league/dance recitals/school functions/family reunions/funerals/parties/....anything you LIKE to do now.... realize that THAT is the reality of the profession which we all seek.

If you don't like hearing that - then you might want to consider flying a desk and doing aviation at a recreational level.

But, if you are like me and have seen what flying a desk is like - and have LISTENED and stored away all the invaluable information passed on to us by those "IN THE KNOW" - then you won't be surprised when the BS side of a job in aviation hits you square in the face.

Just my $0.05.

R2F
 
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Aww, don't worry. We were actually two weeks overdue for a "all you guys with real industry experience are full of crap" thread!
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Cyclical, the forum is.

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LOL Doug, now you sound like a cynical old forum manager
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