Hey, jet pilot types, learn me something'

And I think that is pretty well driven into the professional pilot's head (or even that of the weekend warrior)..........if I have a no kidding emergency, I will tell you exactly what I need and not assume that you know for some reason. Even with an experienced controller that has a good grasp on aviation, there are just too many nuances amongst different aircraft to really expect one to know everything.
 
Maybe what we need to do is go to regional or country fix names only.

"Cleared direct IGLOO, COLDD, direct MAPLE, direct PUCKK, for the HOCKEY1 arrival.....eh"

But then we have to put our paper down and know what country we're over. And that would be...wrong!
 
OK, back to C). Seriously?!? I knew there was Delta level anal-ness in the world (3 wind check requests in under 6 secs without giving controllers a chance to respond, witnessed that myself) , but you sir have an ERAU level anal-ness. My hat is off to you. I myself thought my anal level was high (wife told me so) but this I believe is an anal level not seen before.

It takes all of 30 seconds. If that's being "anal", then so be it.

But then again, maybe my mikecweb "Give A Crap (tm)" level is a bit higher than yours. When you enjoy your job, are paid well, and have a boss that truly cares about you, that tends to be the case.
 
It really shows a lack of understanding, education, and or experience. It really depends on the plane.

I knew a crew who did this in a Citation II, milking it up to it's certified ceiling of FL430. Got there and started a stall/mush descent back down and made the panicked request/demand for lower.

In the Citation X, FL410 will get you 260KIAS and eventually an overspeed at .92. Thus it's 'home' altitudes are FL430 through FL470.

In a CJ-3, ISA+10 is a good thing, even up to it's ceiling of FL450. I've flown it several times at FL410 through FL450 where full cruise power at ISA takes you through redline. In this case ISA+10 gives you a higher TAS at altitude, usually a gain from 390 to 410 KTAS.

Why people certify airplanes to altitudes that arent usable is beyond me. I think the current trend is not to do this with the manufacturers. My latest type, the Phenom 300 is like the CJ-3, the top is FL450. Both could easily make higher, but thankfully they don't give us the 'opportunity' to find the coffin corner.
 
Why people certify airplanes to altitudes that arent usable is beyond me. I think the current trend is not to do this with the manufacturers.
I think it is a mix of the certification process (grab the big number and the Mark II model will make it possible) and marketing (our altimeter is bigger than your altimeter).
 
You seriously do this? Seriously? I mean really, seriously? I just find it so unbelievable that someone (NFP) would actually go through the legs page while in the air with the expectation of getting something.

You fly a pretty advanced aircraft, why don't you just look at the map to ask for a shortcut? Unless you are looking at the course flown as well, OK I'm sorry no one would do that, I don't care what they say.

OK, back to C). Seriously?!? I knew there was Delta level anal-ness in the world (3 wind check requests in under 6 secs without giving controllers a chance to respond, witnessed that myself) , but you sir have an ERAU level anal-ness. My hat is off to you. I myself thought my anal level was high (wife told me so) but this I believe is an anal level not seen before.


Just entering the flight plan into the FMS should give you a little bit of knowledge to what to expect, assuming you're looking at what you are typing.

Asking for three wind checks in six seconds, and being familiar with the route you are assigned are two much different things. I think the difference between Travis and the average airline bear is that Travis probably filed his flight plan himself, which in a way increases situational awareness. This doesn't mean that the airline bear can't achieve the same thing by thumbing through the flight plan, but it is one more exposure to the route.
 
When in doubt, pull out the charts.

I can't believe how many people presume that since the aircraft is certified to X, it'll climb to X.

In turboprop aircraft, we are generally limited to an maximum certificated altitude significantly below our "actual" service ceiling because of emergency descent metrics.

However in a jet, it's "under certain conditions" can we climb to our maximum certificates altitude. Usually engine performance or the wing precludes us from doing so.

Why this isn't taught, I have no idea.

The 767 can climb to and maintain 42 or 43, I can't remember. But the conditions enabling you to do so are rare in many scenarios.

Hell if you take the md 90 up to the maximum computer altitude, as per the FMS, your margins are so narrow, you would be foolish to do so.

Luckily, when I transitioned from turboprops to jets, it was as a 727FE do you always had your heads in the charts telling the captain when you could climb and how much high/low "protection" we had.

Why some became reliant on the FMS or manufacturers best case scenarios, which is largely marketing in a competitive environment, I do not know.
 
Why this isn't taught, I have no idea.
It isn't just that it isn't being taught, many pilots aren't educated enough to ask. Many jump to jets without a clear understanding of the science. Maybe it's my military background, but when faced with a new aircraft, I want to know the "real numbers".
 
I do.

I think it's good practice.

I think you're min-running it. I expect more. I expect you to memorize all fix names on your route, as well as all other fixes 15 miles on either side of the route, both high and low altitude, both compulsory as well as non-compulsory.

I can't believe how much you slack in your duties Douglas.

:)
 
Just an aside, and to put some clarification towards the touchy subject of dealing with not only aircraft accidents themselves, but also when people you personally know are added into the mix. As a guy who has lost somewhere around a rough count of 40 people I've personally known in aircraft accidents, it never is easy when a new number gets added, but sadly you come to get used to it being simply how the dice roll in the game. When someone's number is up, it's up. For whatever reason(s). The grim reaper of aviation will come calling at a time and place of his choosing, without prejudice; and sometimes people or situations help narrow his list for that day. The thing to be cautious of, and this is something I had to watch out for early on and especially in any accident I was investigating, is not wanting to be brutally honest about personal factors with regards to an accident.....pilot error in particular....when it was someone I knew. But that brutal honesty does need to be there and can be done in a respectful way, because if it isn't, the the loss of life was truly for naught. And important lessons to be learned will be minimized or glossed over, due to a fear of judging the dead harshly; when it's not judgement, but rather simply acknowledgement.

In the case of 3701, items such as what management did or didn't do, or how the pilots were trained or not trained; all of these factors are wholly secondary. The fact remains that two pilots took a perfectly good aircraft with no problems, and turned it into a smoking hole in the ground. And they did so in performing a flight profile that there was zero operational need for, and one in which they freely placed themselves and the aircraft in. Regardless of any of the background secondary factors, which is all it is.....background; these guys were the ones at the controls, who were certified to be flying that plane, and who eventually put it into the dirt. In accident investigation, this causal factor of pilot error is known as "Overconfidence in Personal Ability - Pilot In Command [crew]."

Does any of this make these guys bad people? Of course not. Does it make any kind of slam on their character right or productive? Of course not. But did they exercise extremely poor airmanship and aeronautical decisionmaking for placing themselves in an area that there was no operational need to be? At the edge of an envelope with consequences that they neither appeared aware of nor made any proper planning for? All in an airplane that had no pre-existing mechanical problem that was contributory; and all in an environment that had no adverse factors that were contributory such as weather or the like? Yes to all. And that is what needs to be learned from. That's the only thing that will make the loss of life worth anything. And all of that starts with acknowledging, brutally and honestly, that the only thing that truly killed these guys at the end of the day, were their own actions....as well as inactions. No one likes to ever face that because of the negative perception(s) it brings on a personal level, but we'd only be fooling ourselves if we didn't face that and keep it separated from any and all personal perceptions.
 
I do this. Common overseas to get cleared direct FIR boundaries. I page through to get an idea what I might expect to hear; that habit extends to domestic ops, too.

Riddle powerrrrrrr!
Dude, I didn't go to Riddle, and I still look at the FPL page on the FMS. Every. Single. Leg.
 
Just an aside, and to put some clarification towards the touchy subject of dealing with not only aircraft accidents themselves, but also when people you personally know are added into the mix. As a guy who has lost somewhere around a rough count of 40 people I've personally known in aircraft accidents, it never is easy when a new number gets added, but sadly you come to get used to it being simply how the dice roll in the game. When someone's number is up, it's up. For whatever reason(s). The grim reaper of aviation will come calling at a time and place of his choosing, without prejudice; and sometimes people or situations help narrow his list for that day. The thing to be cautious of, and this is something I had to watch out for early on and especially in any accident I was investigating, is not wanting to be brutally honest about personal factors with regards to an accident.....pilot error in particular....when it was someone I knew. But that brutal honesty does need to be there and can be done in a respectful way, because if it isn't, the the loss of life was truly for naught. And important lessons to be learned will be minimized or glossed over, due to a fear of judging the dead harshly; when it's not judgement, but rather simply acknowledgement.

In the case of 3701, items such as what management did or didn't do, or how the pilots were trained or not trained; all of these factors are wholly secondary. The fact remains that two pilots took a perfectly good aircraft with no problems, and turned it into a smoking hole in the ground. And they did so in performing a flight profile that there was zero operational need for, and one in which they freely placed themselves and the aircraft in. Regardless of any of the background secondary factors, which is all it is.....background; these guys were the ones at the controls, who were certified to be flying that plane, and who eventually put it into the dirt. In accident investigation, this causal factor of pilot error is known as "Overconfidence in Personal Ability - Pilot In Command [crew]."

Does any of this make these guys bad people? Of course not. Does it make any kind of slam on their character right or productive? Of course not. But did they exercise extremely poor airmanship and aeronautical decisionmaking for placing themselves in an area that there was no operational need to be? At the edge of an envelope with consequences that they neither appeared aware of nor made any proper planning for? All in an airplane that had no pre-existing mechanical problem that was contributory; and all in an environment that had no adverse factors that were contributory such as weather or the like? Yes to all. And that is what needs to be learned from. That's the only thing that will make the loss of life worth anything. And all of that starts with acknowledging, brutally and honestly, that the only thing that truly killed these guys at the end of the day, were their own actions....as well as inactions. No one likes to ever face that because of the negative perception(s) it brings on a personal level, but we'd only be fooling ourselves if we didn't face that and keep it separated from any and all personal perceptions.

Well said Mike. These guys screwed up bad and paid with their lives and potentially ruined their families' lives in the process. No where though, do I find it appropriate to find humor in death. We are best served learning from those mistakes in a humble manner... "It could happen to me".

Does pilot fighter laugh at the guy who stalled a B52 hot dogging it? Or the crew that shut down the wrong engine on approach?
 
Dude, I didn't go to Riddle, and I still look at the FPL page on the FMS. Every. Single. Leg.

It's required... Why are we even talking about not doing it?

"FMS - Set" on Before Start Check shouldn't be called or acknowledged until the crewmembers have verified the legs based on clearance and flight plan, including going to the north up page on the MFD and scrolling through the fixes. Finally, mileage is to be verified. Once on the runway when TOGA is pressed that is your final clue as to correctness of FP - distance to runway should read 0 if you have selected the correct (the one you are on) runway for the SID.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Aviation humor can't always be about bad food and bitchy flight attendants.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Everyone loves a good laugh at someone dying before their time and leaving behind a family, right? :sarcasm:

You're a POS.

Go ahead and suspend me, mods. It's worth it. He makes me sick.
 
I think you're min-running it. I expect more. I expect you to memorize all fix names on your route, as well as all other fixes 15 miles on either side of the route, both high and low altitude, both compulsory as well as non-compulsory.

I can't believe how much you slack in your duties Douglas.

:)

That ain't in muh CONNNNNtract, Holmes!
 
Yeah, I guess you're right. Everyone loves a good laugh at someone dying before their time and leaving behind a family, right? :sarcasm:

You're a POS.

Go ahead and suspend me, mods. It's worth it. He makes me sick.

Oh god.

Really?

Reaaaallllyyyyyy?

Are we going to flip pogs and defiantly skateboard in a "no skating zone" and dare the cops to hassle us because we gotta be rebellious.

I'm going to save this post just to show you how ridiculous this reads when you take a nap and calm down after snack time.

Oh MY god.
 
ATN_Pilot It's important to understand is that it WAS their time! AND it was a time of their choosing; either by conscious decision or by actions alone .

And while the end result was, in fact, tragic, it was preventable. Having not known either pilot, I can state this with confidence; this is not the first time the Captain flew in this manner. This is not the first time he 'pushed the envelope" and out-flew his (and/or the plane's) capabilities. If ANYONE who knew his pattern of operation (either through rumor or actually being there) had spoken up, they both might be alive. Everyone that knew him as a showboat needs to take a piece of the blame. As MikeD and I have both written, the Captain purposefully flew himself into the problem(s).

Now, while we can sit here and have honest and caring empathy for the familes left behind, we often do so out of fear that one day those crying eyes and broken hearts might just be those of our own loved ones. I can guarantee you that we here have given more thought to their families than they did on that particular day. Or at least more than they did as they were launching into the sky to begin the "joy ride". I'll concede that they probably thought of their families as the trees were getting bigger but by then they were committed to the results of their own foolishness.

We all hope that the events surrounding our deaths are unforeseen or an anomalie (i.e. MX or component failure, etc). But I can honestly look at this at this accident and say "What a couple of idiots". And to Pilot Fighter: YES. The pilots WILL laugh at the B52 guy that stalls one in if, like the crash in MT, the pilot was a showboat and had a history of similar actions. And again this particular pilot wasn't thinking of his family while bending the wings of his bomber that particular day.
 
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