Hey, jet pilot types, learn me something'

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Common radio or ATC term?

Don't know about that. I can't think of a reason why it would need to be communicated regularly over the radio. But it's a standard industry term, so I'm surprised you haven't heard it. Are you not in the industry?

Unless these guys were in extreme close contact with each other on at least three different occasions, then at least three times in the "seat switching" process, there was no one at a pilot station. Dangerous isn't even a stretch. The climb profile exceeded anything taught at Pinnacle or any other airline for that matter. Dangerous? The cavalier attitude, yelling, and celebrating the events were a precursor to the end result. Dangerous?

Nope, none of it dangerous. Immature? Yes. Unprofessional? Certainly. But going to get someone killed or injured, or going to bend an airplane? Not a chance.

I take it you knew one or both of these guys. Sorry for the loss.

Not really. I had spoken to the captain on a couple of occasions in passing, and I spoke to the FO once on the phone when he was looking for a crashpad, but I never met him. But know them or not, I find it distasteful in the extreme how people think they get a free pass to ridicule them with the "410 it dude" statements and the like. Two men died, one of them leaving behind a wife and a newborn baby. The other was practically a kid, just beginning his career. Neither of them thought they were going to die that day. Neither of them thought that they were doing anything dangerous. They may have had an unprofessional attitude, but a lot of pilots fit that category. And that wasn't what killed them. What killed them was a lack of knowledge. And I lay that squarely at the feet of the scumbags like the Program Manager who testified in the hearing and trashed them, not taking a single bit of the blame for setting loose a BE-1900 captain and an FO with a few hundred hours with no high altitude training whatsoever.

 

[dustoff17]

Don't know about that. I can't think of a reason why it would need to be communicated regularly over the radio. But it's a standard industry term, so I'm surprised you haven't heard it. Are you not in the industry?

Yeah, you can see from my post that I've heard of ISA, use it, and yes, I'm "in the industry". I've just never heard anyone use it in a radio transmission with ATC

As it stands we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue, I think they were pushing the envelope from the very beginning and didn't get "back into into the game" until they were at about 10,000'. If they never had high altitude training, had never flown there before, and weren't familiar with the effects of high altitude on the airplane, what were they doing there? They clearly out flew both their and the plane's capability; dangerous? It's not like the company forced them into the situation that killed them. They took it there all by themselves. I do think that the end result stands as a testament and clears up our discussion.

 

[ackeight]

The Phenom 100 is limited to -61 at 410, makes 410 hard a lot since thats -4 from ISA.

I've been out of the phenom game for awhile but weren't they going to change that to something colder if you could maintain a certain airspeed?

 

[Pilot Fighter]

But know them or not, I find it distasteful in the extreme how people think they get a free pass to ridicule them with the "410 it dude" statements and the like. Two men died, one of them leaving behind a wife and a newborn.

We all understand tragedy and loss. We don't need that lesson. When pilots screw up and lives are lost for no good reason, pilots are brutally frank and humor keeps lessons learned resonating in our minds. Yeah, leave a widow and a child without a father due to reckless piloting and I can be a real azz. Yeah, I think there is a free pass of sorts.

 

[hcaeborev]

I've yet to use a flight planning service that didn't include info about ISA deviation on the entire route.

I think this is kinda like crew I hear that obviously haven't looked at an enroute.
"Airline 456, cleared direct CARPX"
"Uhh, is that Charlie Lima Bravo?"
"No, that's Charlie Alpha Romeo Papa Xray. CARPX, on your route of flight."

Do you work 121? If so do you look at an enroute chart before every flight?

 

[ackeight]

Do you work 121? If so do you look at an enroute chart before every flight?

I think he is referring to the guys not knowing what's on their assigned route. It's in the box, look! Unless its a vor that doesn't resemble it's identifier. Then I'm sometimes scrambling for my nav log to not look dumb.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Do you work 121? If so do you look at an enroute chart before every flight?

No, I'm 91. I fly the same milk run 75% of the time. If I'm on not on the milk run, I'm flying along the eastern seaboard 99% of the time. For the other 1% of the trips, I...
A) am the one filing the flight plan
B) familiarize myself with the route I'm filing
C) page through the FMS to see what fixes are on my route and try to have a general idea of what sort of clearances I can expect to hear.

 

[C150J]

Do you work 121? If so do you look at an enroute chart before every flight?

I understand what you're saying, but...

I've worked both 121, 135, and 91: CARPX is definitely one I'd be familiar with in any environment, as it's a compulsory reporting point in the Atlantic when out of radar contact.

That being said, we've certainly all "been there" when it comes to some weird direct-to clearance!

 

[hcaeborev]

Perhaps, except for the fact that he specifically mentioned an enroute chart.

ATC isn't correct 100% of the time. I've had them clear me to a fix not on my route/clear me to something I couldn't do based on equip type and get "Its a VOR"...."yes sir it is but it is also 400NM away".

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

We all understand tragedy and loss. We don't need that lesson. When pilots screw up and lives are lost for no good reason, pilots are brutally frank and humor keeps lessons learned resonating in our minds. Yeah, leave a widow and a child without a father due to reckless piloting and I can be a real azz. Yeah, I think there is a free pass of sorts.

Disgusting.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I understand what you're saying, but...

I've worked both 121, 135, and 91: CARPX is definitely one I'd be familiar with in any environment, as it's a compulsory reporting point in the Atlantic when out of radar contact.

That being said, we've certainly all "been there" when it comes to some weird direct-to clearance!

"...spell it again?"

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Disgusting.

I guess your tears are saltier than the rest of us.

 

[wheelsup]

No, I'm 91. I fly the same milk run 75% of the time. If I'm on not on the milk run, I'm flying along the eastern seaboard 99% of the time. For the other 1% of the trips, I...
A) am the one filing the flight plan
B) familiarize myself with the route I'm filing
C) page through the FMS to see what fixes are on my route and try to have a general idea of what sort of clearances I can expect to hear.

You seriously do this? Seriously? I mean really, seriously? I just find it so unbelievable that someone (NFP) would actually go through the legs page while in the air with the expectation of getting something.

You fly a pretty advanced aircraft, why don't you just look at the map to ask for a shortcut? Unless you are looking at the course flown as well, OK I'm sorry no one would do that, I don't care what they say.

OK, back to C). Seriously?!? I knew there was Delta level anal-ness in the world (3 wind check requests in under 6 secs without giving controllers a chance to respond, witnessed that myself) , but you sir have an ERAU level anal-ness. My hat is off to you. I myself thought my anal level was high (wife told me so) but this I believe is an anal level not seen before.

 

[X-Forces]

You seriously do this? Seriously? I mean really, seriously? I just find it so unbelievable that someone (NFP) would actually go through the legs page while in the air with the expectation of getting something.

You fly a pretty advanced aircraft, why don't you just look at the map to ask for a shortcut? Unless you are looking at the course flown as well, OK I'm sorry no one would do that, I don't care what they say.

OK, back to C). Seriously?!? I knew there was Delta level anal-ness in the world (3 wind check requests in under 6 secs without giving controllers a chance to respond, witnessed that myself) , but you sir have an ERAU level anal-ness. My hat is off to you. I myself thought my anal level was high (wife told me so) but this I believe is an anal level not seen before.

 

[dasleben]

You seriously do this? Seriously? I mean really, seriously? I just find it so unbelievable that someone (NFP) would actually go through the legs page while in the air with the expectation of getting something.

You fly a pretty advanced aircraft, why don't you just look at the map to ask for a shortcut? Unless you are looking at the course flown as well, OK I'm sorry no one would do that, I don't care what they say.

OK, back to C). Seriously?!? I knew there was Delta level anal-ness in the world (3 wind check requests in under 6 secs without giving controllers a chance to respond, witnessed that myself) , but you sir have an ERAU level anal-ness. My hat is off to you. I myself thought my anal level was high (wife told me so) but this I believe is an anal level not seen before.

I do this. Common overseas to get cleared direct FIR boundaries. I page through to get an idea what I might expect to hear; that habit extends to domestic ops, too.

Riddle powerrrrrrr!

 

[Vector4Food]

In the airspace I work, when I clear an airplane direct to one of the everyday FIR fixes or OEP's I expect and 99% of the time get a readback without clarification required.

When there are only 4-5 NATS and I give a route change direct to an OEP followed by a NAT track, I expect the pilot can read his track message and find the associated fix pretty quickly, but that's a unique situation.

 

[derg]

You seriously do this? Seriously? I mean really, seriously? I just find it so unbelievable that someone (NFP) would actually go through the legs page while in the air with the expectation of getting something.

You fly a pretty advanced aircraft, why don't you just look at the map to ask for a shortcut? Unless you are looking at the course flown as well, OK I'm sorry no one would do that, I don't care what they say.

OK, back to C). Seriously?!? I knew there was Delta level anal-ness in the world (3 wind check requests in under 6 secs without giving controllers a chance to respond, witnessed that myself) , but you sir have an ERAU level anal-ness. My hat is off to you. I myself thought my anal level was high (wife told me so) but this I believe is an anal level not seen before.

I do.

Primarily when you come off the tracks and control says something like "route direct LERGA LAGAS Upper lima 567 Hampton flight plan route" when you're not expecting it, it sure sounds better than stammering on a busy control freq.

Yeah I'm a u-boat commander and former Riddle, I don't do 'greek' but I think it's just basic common sense and keeps the radio clear from "ArrooooOOOooo? ZOMG, say again?!"

In fact, as we coast in I'll have one FMS head on one page, the other on page two so I can make heads or tails over what fix they said in a Irish brogue.

Also, knowing what the final fix is on your airway in that countries sector is helpful as often they'll clear you direct after radio contact.

Many are tremendously difficult to discern unless you've got experience in the theater and know when a controller is saying LERGA or LAGAS or BOBTU or BOMBI in, from my American ear's perspective, a crazy accent.

I think it's good practice.

 

[///AMG]

Interesting convo......in 12 years of flying, I have never even heard of this, so OP, don't feel silly. I'm a jeeeeeeettttt guy as well, so I guess I am doubly dumb for not knowing

 

[Vector4Food]

Maybe what we need to do is go to regional or country fix names only.

"Cleared direct IGLOO, COLDD, direct MAPLE, direct PUCKK, for the HOCKEY1 arrival.....eh"

 

[Vector4Food]

Interesting convo......in 12 years of flying, I have never even heard of this, so OP, don't feel silly. I'm a jeeeeeeettttt guy as well, so I guess I am doubly dumb for not knowing

Good to know.

As a controller, sometimes you feel like you're supposed to know everything a pilot tells you.

Reality is some of the new people off the street couldn't tell the difference between a 777 and a MD80 to look at them, only the performance info. In reality 99% of the time that's all that matters.

The vast majority of those controllers take it upon themselves to learn more about aviation and airplanes, but at the end of the day it's not required to know what an airplane can/can't do, the flight crew will advise.

Personal attitude however is that, the more I know the better controller I can be, and the better service I can provide. Also I may have a better indication when something is going wrong.