Have you ever "fired" a student?

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Have you ever "fired" a student? If so, did that person eventually crash an airplane?

  • No

  • Yes. I fired a student, but I don't know if he crashed.

  • Yes. I fired a student, and he crashed.

  • Yes. I fired more than one student, and all of these people crashed.

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Jordan93 said:
This. The checklists my school makes is a small two sided laminated paper. We use that for every plane in our fleet. Like I mentioned in my other post, if my student doesn't have strong checklist discipline when he flies a 172 what do you think is going to happen when he flies a 747. It doesn't matter how simple the plane is, it's the act of using a checklist that is important.
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Well then your checklist is twice as long as the one on our 747.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
It's not about complexity but complacency.
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As much as checklist usage is important in many aircraft. I'm a much bigger proponent of flying the aircraft you are actually flying today. In learning to fly a 172, you should have no thoughts whatsoever of it transferring to a Boeing. You cannot fly big airplanes like small ones, why would you try it the other way around? Think about how you do wind corrections on takeoff, or the many other things that are possibly the opposite of what you learn in trainers.
No. Fly the airplane your butt is in right now. There's a reason trainers are simple and it's not so people can randomly make them complex for no reason.

Next time your in my town, you can come tell me if I'm complacent. ;)
 
z987k said:
As much as checklist usage is important in many aircraft. I'm a much bigger proponent of flying the aircraft you are actually flying today. In learning to fly a 172, you should have no thoughts whatsoever of it transferring to a Boeing. You cannot fly big airplanes like small ones, why would you try it the other way around? Think about how you do wind corrections on takeoff, or the many other things that are possibly the opposite of what you learn in trainers.
No. Fly the airplane your butt is in right now. There's a reason trainers are simple and it's not so people can randomly make them complex for no reason.

Next time your in my town, you can come tell me if I'm complacent. ;)
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Hell even the portion of the Navajo checklist that you actually need during normal ops fits on the sun visor.
 
Roger Roger said:
Hell even the portion of the Navajo checklist that you actually need during normal ops fits on the sun visor.
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I mean I'm not against a checklist that is 2 pages long. Provided it's actually necessary. I haven't flown a DC-6 or the like, but I imagine the engineer's checklist is more like a book than a checklist. And that would seem appropriate.

From my 172 days... where I didn't use a checklist. It went something like -
Master - on
Beacon - on
Start engine
Radio master - on
Runup (mags & carb heat)

That should fit on a sticky note that you can just tape to the panel somewhere. Maybe add setting up the radios on an IFR flight.
In my airplane I can remove both the beacon and radio master from the list. 3 items I manage to get every time. Considering it won't leave the ground otherwise, I think I'm good.
 
I always wanted people to be at least somewhat up to the ridiculously easy private PTS, a big emphasis was checklist usage. That way I could cover my own ass and say "well, I told them" if they ever goofed anything up. Then again that's why I quit instructing.
 
z987k said:
As much as checklist usage is important in many aircraft. I'm a much bigger proponent of flying the aircraft you are actually flying today. In learning to fly a 172, you should have no thoughts whatsoever of it transferring to a Boeing. You cannot fly big airplanes like small ones, why would you try it the other way around? Think about how you do wind corrections on takeoff, or the many other things that are possibly the opposite of what you learn in trainers.
No. Fly the airplane your butt is in right now. There's a reason trainers are simple and it's not so people can randomly make them complex for no reason.

Next time your in my town, you can come tell me if I'm complacent. ;)
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Still not convinced.

For example: In bumblefark Alaska, maybe Forgetting the transponder isn't a big deal...if you even have one. But when I was instructing in DC, that would had gotten me a meeting with DHS.

To me it's not the items on the checklist so much it is the fact that you realize that you're liable to forget something, no matter how simple the plane is and how long you've been flying. I mean hell...I've tried to get out of my car with my seatbelt still on.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Still not convinced.

For example: In bumblefark Alaska, maybe Forgetting the transponder isn't a big deal...if you even have one(nope). But when I was instructing in DC, that would had gotten me a meeting with DHS.

To me it's not the items on the checklist so much it is the fact that you realize that you're liable to forget something, no matter how simple the plane is and how long you've been flying. I mean hell...I've tried to get out of my car with my seatbelt still on.
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Sure. But you don't need a checklist to say take your seatbelt off. That part becomes pretty self evident rather quickly. It's the same as say, not starting the engine, but trying to taxi. You don't really need that on a checklist as the laws of physics will protest the movement of the aircraft without propulsion.
Maybe I'm too accustomed to flying extraordinarily simple singles. Maybe everyone else needs to find the joy of flying without an electrical system. The only item in my airplane that could be an issue is landing on an almost empty tank(forgetting to switch), but that is placarded on the panel so...
 
z987k said:
Well then your checklist is twice as long as the one on our 747.
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I agree that something like a 172 or Warrior you don't need a ridiculously long checklist and I'm sure you could fit everything on an index card but it is the principle and primacy of teaching checklist usage. If my student isn't using a checklist in something as simple as a 172 then that student probably won't use one in his 747.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
Why not? I see checklist complacency all the time. Nothing like being the FO who has to tell the CA to actually pull the checklist out and look at it as opposed to doing it by memory. Yes, it's only 4 items, but at least pretend to read from it.
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Exactly. It's like using a turn signal. It takes such minimal effort, not doing it is really going out of your way to be a dingleberry.
 
z987k said:
There is no validity to that assumption.
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Law of primacy. I'm not saying it's impossible to unlearn, but it will take some time. I got a student from another CFI that did 20 hours with him and never taught him to use rudder. He still needs to be reminded to use rudder.
 
Jordan93 said:
Law of primacy. I'm not saying it's impossible to unlearn, but it will take some time. I got a student from another CFI that did 20 hours with him and never taught him to use rudder. He still needs to be reminded to use rudder.
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The quick solution to that problem is to make him get a tailwheel endorsement.
 
ahsmatt7 said:
Yeah your exactly right!!! Man I sound like an idiot!!! Who would of thought someone who could barely speak english, fumbling over the radios trying to get a take off clearance with someone else who has barley any experience. Yep, that's really dividing the workload.

Actually looking back at it and why I got so pissed Arndt the situation, was the fact that he admitted to not only flying the airplane from the right seat which last time I checked, you can't do as a student pilot....ya know, fly airplanes with someone else in them. I also found out that he switched seats and flew from the left seat at the airport he was going to. How did I confirm this??? He was in the left seat when he landed at our airport.

Explain to me how someone who had just soloed and has no idea about the airspace outside of one's airport and can only think about what is immediately happening due to their lack of experience is actual help in the cockpit. He and this other guy went across the bay area in San Francisco to another airport.

To think a newly soloed student pilot is any help in that situation is naive and borderline dangerous.

I didn't write out the whole story because I didn't feel like it needed to be plastered. However, since you felt you needed to say what you said, here you go! Still hold your same sentiment?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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Holy context, batman. You didn't include any of that in your post, just that he was taxiing and helping with radios and you fired him. The exclamation points and inflammatory attitude are unnecessary, dude.
 
BarbieDreamPilot said:
Holy context, batman. You didn't include any of that in your post, just that he was taxiing and helping with radios and you fired him. The exclamation points and inflammatory attitude are unnecessary, dude.
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My bad Dude! I wasn't having the best day yesterday. Please forgive me.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
I'll raise my hand and say "just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's prudent".

The FAA, from my experience in a couple cases, takes a very interesting interpretation of the FARS especially when there is bent metal, bruised egos and "even though it was legal, it wasn't prudent, thus, careless and reckless".

Legally, a private pilot could put their mom in the left seat. But if you blew a tire and shut down a runway at SFO, I'd assume they're going to ask you about how much experience you have operating that aircraft from the right seat, the human factors involved with having all of the controls and switches opposite the certificated pilots seat position, yadda yadda yadda.

Sure you can take off zero-zero under part 91, but if you end up whacking a schoolbus full of kids because you blew an engine and deadsticked it onto El Camino Real, they're going to get really creative with their application of the FARS.
 
Roger Roger said:
Hell even the portion of the Navajo checklist that you actually need during normal ops fits on the sun visor.
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Thats exactly where my checklist sits. Since it's right there anyway, having it there keeps me from getting lazy and just doing the flows and going without backing them up with the checklist since all I have to do is look up to read it real quick. It takes maybe an extra few seconds to run each checklist for normal ops.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
Why not? I see checklist complacency all the time. Nothing like being the FO who has to tell the CA to actually pull the checklist out and look at it as opposed to doing it by memory. Yes, it's only 4 items, but at least pretend to read from it.
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I'm guilty as charged on that one...read above for my solution to my problem.
 
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