Have you ever "fired" a student?

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  • Start date Start date

Have you ever "fired" a student? If so, did that person eventually crash an airplane?

  • No

  • Yes. I fired a student, but I don't know if he crashed.

  • Yes. I fired a student, and he crashed.

  • Yes. I fired more than one student, and all of these people crashed.


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I mean I'm not against a checklist that is 2 pages long. Provided it's actually necessary. I haven't flown a DC-6 or the like, but I imagine the engineer's checklist is more like a book than a checklist. And that would seem appropriate.

From my 172 days... where I didn't use a checklist. It went something like -
Master - on
Beacon - on
Start engine
Radio master - on
Runup (mags & carb heat)

That should fit on a sticky note that you can just tape to the panel somewhere. Maybe add setting up the radios on an IFR flight.
In my airplane I can remove both the beacon and radio master from the list. 3 items I manage to get every time. Considering it won't leave the ground otherwise, I think I'm good.
Well, I agree with you in principle. I personally haven't touched the checklist in a single engine cessna since my commercial/CFI check rides 5 or 6 years ago and still don't on the rare occasion that I do fly one, but you and I are professionals who fly a lot and have experience. The average weekend warrior pilot who only fly's 50 or less hours per year still should be using some kind of checklist no matter what they fly (could be a printed checklist or some kind of mnemonic that they can easily remember). Many of them haven't been exposed to flows in training and don't fly enough to be proficient in a flow that requires a bit of muscle memory to get down pat (this is what I've observed when trying to introduce the concept of a flow to multiple weekend warrior types on recurrent training flights/checkouts).
 
I just can't fathom how being a "professional" with "lots of experience" makes not using a checklist in a simple aircraft acceptable in any way shape or form.

We have one item on our "CLIMB CHECK".

And you're going to pull the checklist out.

Errr'time.

Ah ah ah! Don't care. Read the item. Perfect.

If you want to cash that check, bossman says those are the rules. Or buy your own Airbus.
 
I'll raise my hand and say "just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's prudent".

The FAA, from my experience in a couple cases, takes a very interesting interpretation of the FARS especially when there is bent metal, bruised egos and "even though it was legal, it wasn't prudent, thus, careless and reckless".

Legally, a private pilot could put their mom in the left seat. But if you blew a tire and shut down a runway at SFO, I'd assume they're going to ask you about how much experience you have operating that aircraft from the right seat, the human factors involved with having all of the controls and switches opposite the certificated pilots seat position, yadda yadda yadda.

Sure you can take off zero-zero under part 91, but if you end up whacking a schoolbus full of kids because you blew an engine and deadsticked it onto El Camino Real, they're going to get really creative with their application of the FARS.

13 is the unlucky number! Even for the FAA. 91.13!!!

Not to mention that, like the Tesla guys out of PAO in zero/zero, you'll be DOL on the Real.
 
We have one item on our "CLIMB CHECK".

And you're going to pull the checklist out.

Errr'time.

Ah ah ah! Don't care. Read the item. Perfect.

If you want to cash that check, bossman says those are the rules. Or buy your own Airbus.
We're not really talking about our company's ride though. And bossman says no checklist.
 
I just can't fathom how being a "professional" with "lots of experience" makes not using a checklist in a simple aircraft acceptable in any way shape or form.
Because there's nothing you can put on that checklist that makes any sense.
 
Because there's nothing you can put on that checklist that makes any sense.

Was there a little more to the thought or is this the alpha to the omega of what you were trying to convey?
 
I just can't fathom how being a "professional" with "lots of experience" makes not using a checklist in a simple aircraft acceptable in any way shape or form.
There are checklists, and then there are checklists.

To some degree, student pilots need detailed expanded checklists that cover every step in the process. However, when was the last time you saw an airline pilot walking around a plane with a checklist in hand? Once you have preflighted the same airplane 200 times, you have a memorized flow.

Most simple training aircraft only need the most basic of checklists to back up flows. Oftentimes, these can even be mental checklists in the form of nemonics like

Controls
Instruments
Gas
Flaps
Trim

You could print that out on a 3x5 card if you need it written down somewhere. Sportys sells these http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/retractable-gear-vari-prop-checklist-placard-3-in-x-5-in.html
 
Was there a little more to the thought or is this the alpha to the omega of what you were trying to convey?
I'm trying to convey that you should fly the airplane you are in. Not trying to fly a incredibly simple machines like it's an airliner.

This thread reminds me of this -


Flying his cub like it's the Hughes Hercules. Because you know, you might fly something big some day. Better have 27 mile downwinds now for primacy.
 
I'm trying to convey that you should fly the airplane you are in. Not trying to fly a incredibly simple machines like it's an airliner.

This thread reminds me of this -


Flying his cub like it's the Hughes Hercules. Because you know, you might fly something big some day. Better have 27 mile downwinds now for primacy.


Now you're going very extreme, but that's alright.

Seriously, do what you'd like.

But this isn't specifically a GA website. This is a professional aviation website and professional aviators have procedure and… checklists.
 
Legally, a private pilot could put their mom in the left seat. But if you blew a tire and shut down a runway at SFO, I'd assume they're going to ask you about how much experience you have operating that aircraft from the right seat, the human factors involved with having all of the controls and switches opposite the certificated pilots seat position, yadda yadda yadda.
What if there was a horse in the left seat and it was part of a rap video? @ChasenSFO
 
I just can't fathom how being a "professional" with "lots of experience" makes not using a checklist in a simple aircraft acceptable in any way shape or form.
If the aircraft belongs to the person flying it or they are renting it for their personal pleasure, they should generally be able to operate it the way they see fit just as long as its safe. If someone else is paying them to fly that aircraft, they should operate it the way that the person signing their check wants it operated. Period.
 
None of them crashed, however there are two students that I did not recommend them to advance for a check ride. They both received an endorsement from another instructor, one passed the ride and the other failed. Both of them had issues that would've failed but one apparently demonstrated different skills on the ride or the examiner wasn't as critical as I was.

At one point or another I stopped scheduling certain students because they didn't take it seriously or conducted themselves unprofessionally.

Only one student crashed, he put his SuperCub on its back when attempting a wheel landing. No injuries, insurance company bought it and he bought a Carbon Cub.
 
I was fired. The story is here on JC somewhere. But I'll share here as well to give CFI's the student perspective.

My first flight lesson was on my 15th birthday and I got my PPL at age 20. All at one school. I paid as I went and ended up earning my PPL on my 100th hour of flight. Lessons were spread out, sometimes as far as 4-6 months apart. Very rarely could I afford 2 lessons in the same month, and never more than 3. I soloed around the 10 hour mark(spread out over 3 years!), but then I hit a rut where my solo currency kept expiring before I could afford solo XCs, which lead to flying more XCs, then being broke again, then having to re-do those XCs. And so on and so fourth. My CFI was paid in block hours, and it was visibly frustrating to him in retrospect when those 20 block hours would be spread out over 1 year, and I would call him out of the blue able to afford an odd lesson. To save me money, and I suppose himself time, close to 100% of my ground instruction was provided by him at weekly groundschools he held at the school. I attended them religiously for a few years until I passed my written. But even then, when you're barely flying, get ground on 1 random topic per week in a class of 5-15 people but have long since passed the written, you forget. Quick. Self study is great and all, but there were some big holes in my training. Honestly a combination of intuition and being a total airplane nerd with above-average radio work and situational awareness were enough to make me appear vastly more competent than I really was. I actually got lost on my final stage check shortly before the checkride but "figured things out" and discreetly coaxed the airplane towards a checkpoint that I would have missed by miles while appearing to track the VOR(because I didn't know how to intercept it but figured it out as I joined what would have been the radial and watched the needle going "ahhhh ok I get it" to myself). While now, I see how this lead to issues, remember this is all in retrospect, of course. I wasn't trying to pull anything over anyone, I just did what I could with what I had in a "mission" mentality to finish training. Nearing the 100 hour mark, I met all the time requirements and could fly within the PTS standards. I voiced this and was met with "So you think you're ready? How about the end of the month". On top of the stage check that I should not have passed, I was given a single ground session for prep where, while given tons of information, it was all coming at me too fast to process. Stopping him for questions became futile when I had questions about everything, and his answers only generated additional questions. But hey, if my CFI thinks I'm ready, I guess I'm ready. I figured the worst I could do was fail, so I crammed and crammed at home and I took the checkride anyway. Well, the school did not like my "laid back" attitude on a potential failure. Nor did the DPE who quite literally storming out of the oral less than an hour into it. Didn't even tell me where I went wrong, how to improve, nothing. Instead, he ripped apart my CFI for my performance in the oral, packed up, asked me to sign the pink slip in a manner which left me unsure if the checkride was even over with minimal explanation, and left. In turn, my CFI, very stressed out and embarrassed, yelled at me and said we had to start "all over". I knew that wasn't true, because while there were a lot of holes don't get me wrong, I had the general concepts down. But that was seriously the recommendation from the school, they didn't know exactly where they went wrong with me so, "let's just start from the beginning and go over each and every subject and portion of flight" as if I were a "new student", save only the very basics. Well, I conferred with the folks on JC, other pilots, and CFIs. They, too, recommended that I try getting refreshed elsewhere and re-taking the ride. So, I remained totally respectful keeping in mind I planned to continue flying there, and informed the school that I didn't have the funds for another 30+ hours of a $155/hr airplane and $60/hr CFI(roughly what the proposal would have cost me) and thus would be finishing my PPL elsewhere, within the month, but would then return to rent with them and continue my training.

Spent the next 3 weeks preparing for the re-check in Kentucky with @kiloalpha , passed the oral and the checkride very comfortably in a place I had never even heard of (Seymour, Indiana). Finding out all I needed was a different approach to the trouble areas and that . Perhaps it was because he was a friend, but @kiloalpha was very blunt with me, told me when I sucked and when I was full of poo-poo and didn't know what I was talking about, and I knew to improve there. He also had me explain the concepts to him until I actually knew what I was saying. That is what I needed. Triumphant, I returned home and wanted to rent. Winds were 17 knots(student pilots had a 9 knot limit at this school), but down the runway not gusting, and the sky was overcast but at 4,500 feet. The weather was worse(thunderstorms building in the general area, moderate turbulence, gusting crosswind, close to MVFR visibility at times) when I last flew a few days before on my PPL ride. As such, I was confident flying tame a Bay Tour in those conditions as winds were only forecast to drop and cloud ceiling to stay the same. Not to mention Mr. Never-flies-4-times-per-month had logged a whopping 15 hours in the past 3 weeks. Quite simply, I had never in my life felt so comfortable behind the yoke at that point. That is not to say that I was overconfident, but rather I didn't feel like the weather was grounds for canceling the flight. I had just returned, and short of faxing a copy of my temporary PPL to the school and an e-mail to my CFI and the CP, I had not spoken to anyone there. I was very excited to show up and present my certificate I worked 5 years for from these pilots who I respected and watched me grow. Well, get a call from my CFI on the way to the airport. The fact that I, "went out to the boonies and wooed some DPE into handing me my PPL ticket at an uncontrolled airport doesn't mean crap here in the Bay Area" and "the fact that as a brand new private pilot I think it is safe to fly on a day like today is grounds for suspension, and until further review I am suspended from the school". He finished with, "I like you a whole hell of a lot, but you're going to get yourself killed in one of our airplanes". Some congratulations. How embarrassing to take that call on the way with one of my best friends and my girlfriend. Also very emotional to hear that from a guy that I respected the hell out of. Within 24 hours, I had an e-mail from the CP, "in the best interest of the school, the aircraft owners, and the general public", he was hereby refunding my left over block credit and I was no longer welcome to the place where I had spent the last 5 years of my life learning to fly. Never heard from him again, and only once more from CFI who let me know via a voicemail that I could still attend his weekly groundschool if I wanted to, though I did not ever go back and the school has since closed. I tried to stand up for myself and sent the CP an e-mail asking him to reconsider, and stating that they're the one's who trained me so to give up on me at the end of my primary training and before the start of my instrument(had this not happened, I would have immediately started that rather than taking a break from training) rather than working with me for a checkout of sorts was simply ludicrous. This was followed by an e-mail that was akin to "I like you, as a friend, but not as a pilot" kind of e-mail. My father, who I am not very close to, took it upon himself to take a trip to the school when he found out what happened. The owner informed him they thought I was too laid back, didn't take anything seriously, and didn't understand I could kill myself in an airplane. Yeah, the guy who was loading up airdisaster.com on AOL at age 6 reading freggin NTSB reports out of curiosity when my friends were outside playing doesn't think it can happen to him. When my father alluded to that, their argument shifted to they felt I was a classic case of the anti-authoritative pilot. I failed a checkride in the Bay Area, said to hell with all of you, and came back with a PPL to rub in their faces. That is how it came off to the owner who had made up his mind that I would never be trusted with the planes I learned to fly in. And that was that.

It was a crushing blow and it took me several months to save up enough to join a new club and get checked out. My confidence to do so also took a huge hit, and I didn't trust myself the way I should have my first few flights sans CFI. Ultimately, they made me think I was going to get myself or my passengers killed. What did they know about me that I didn't know about myself? Despite my care-free personality, I have always been very safety-minded no matter if I was flying, driving, or crossing the street. I know I can die anytime I leave the ground, it is always in the back of my mind as a reminder to stay composed. It took me a good 2 years to get myself back to where I was the day I earned my PPL confidence wise, and while I won't make an excuse about the delay in my training as of course I could have continued, it sure didn't help either. For me personally, the silver lining in all of this was the resulting skepticism towards putting all my eggs into a flying career has turned out great so far and I'm very happy with my life in these 6 years since I passed the checkride. I am very happy with my life, everything is coming together like a story book ending and I actually have my instrument written exam scheduled for early next month. However, for those CFIs reading, I hope you take this to heart. Do everything you can to work with someone before you cut them loose. Especially if their heart is into it. While it may just be one less student or renter on the schedule for you, the ramifications of someone they respect and trust with their life no longer wanting them around can be crushing.
 
I was fired. The story is here on JC somewhere. But I'll share here as well to give CFI's the student perspective.

My first flight lesson was on my 15th birthday and I got my PPL at age 20. All at one school. I paid as I went and ended up earning my PPL on my 100th hour of flight. Lessons were spread out, sometimes as far as 4-6 months apart. Very rarely could I afford 2 lessons in the same month, and never more than 3. I soloed around the 10 hour mark(spread out over 3 years!), but then I hit a rut where my solo currency kept expiring before I could afford solo XCs, which lead to flying more XCs, then being broke again, then having to re-do those XCs. And so on and so fourth. My CFI was paid in block hours, and it was visibly frustrating to him in retrospect when those 20 block hours would be spread out over 1 year, and I would call him out of the blue able to afford an odd lesson. To save me money, and I suppose himself time, close to 100% of my ground instruction was provided by him at weekly groundschools he held at the school. I attended them religiously for a few years until I passed my written. But even then, when you're barely flying, get ground on 1 random topic per week in a class of 5-15 people but have long since passed the written, you forget. Quick. Self study is great and all, but there were some big holes in my training. Honestly a combination of intuition and being a total airplane nerd with above-average radio work and situational awareness were enough to make me appear vastly more competent than I really was. I actually got lost on my final stage check shortly before the checkride but "figured things out" and discreetly coaxed the airplane towards a checkpoint that I would have missed by miles while appearing to track the VOR(because I didn't know how to intercept it but figured it out as I joined what would have been the radial and watched the needle going "ahhhh ok I get it" to myself). While now, I see how this lead to issues, remember this is all in retrospect, of course. I wasn't trying to pull anything over anyone, I just did what I could with what I had in a "mission" mentality to finish training. Nearing the 100 hour mark, I met all the time requirements and could fly within the PTS standards. I voiced this and was met with "So you think you're ready? How about the end of the month". On top of the stage check that I should not have passed, I was given a single ground session for prep where, while given tons of information, it was all coming at me too fast to process. Stopping him for questions became futile when I had questions about everything, and his answers only generated additional questions. But hey, if my CFI thinks I'm ready, I guess I'm ready. I figured the worst I could do was fail, so I crammed and crammed at home and I took the checkride anyway. Well, the school did not like my "laid back" attitude on a potential failure. Nor did the DPE who quite literally storming out of the oral less than an hour into it. Didn't even tell me where I went wrong, how to improve, nothing. Instead, he ripped apart my CFI for my performance in the oral, packed up, asked me to sign the pink slip in a manner which left me unsure if the checkride was even over with minimal explanation, and left. In turn, my CFI, very stressed out and embarrassed, yelled at me and said we had to start "all over". I knew that wasn't true, because while there were a lot of holes don't get me wrong, I had the general concepts down. But that was seriously the recommendation from the school, they didn't know exactly where they went wrong with me so, "let's just start from the beginning and go over each and every subject and portion of flight" as if I were a "new student", save only the very basics. Well, I conferred with the folks on JC, other pilots, and CFIs. They, too, recommended that I try getting refreshed elsewhere and re-taking the ride. So, I remained totally respectful keeping in mind I planned to continue flying there, and informed the school that I didn't have the funds for another 30+ hours of a $155/hr airplane and $60/hr CFI(roughly what the proposal would have cost me) and thus would be finishing my PPL elsewhere, within the month, but would then return to rent with them and continue my training.

Spent the next 3 weeks preparing for the re-check in Kentucky with @kiloalpha , passed the oral and the checkride very comfortably in a place I had never even heard of (Seymour, Indiana). Finding out all I needed was a different approach to the trouble areas and that . Perhaps it was because he was a friend, but @kiloalpha was very blunt with me, told me when I sucked and when I was full of poo-poo and didn't know what I was talking about, and I knew to improve there. He also had me explain the concepts to him until I actually knew what I was saying. That is what I needed. Triumphant, I returned home and wanted to rent. Winds were 17 knots(student pilots had a 9 knot limit at this school), but down the runway not gusting, and the sky was overcast but at 4,500 feet. The weather was worse(thunderstorms building in the general area, moderate turbulence, gusting crosswind, close to MVFR visibility at times) when I last flew a few days before on my PPL ride. As such, I was confident flying tame a Bay Tour in those conditions as winds were only forecast to drop and cloud ceiling to stay the same. Not to mention Mr. Never-flies-4-times-per-month had logged a whopping 15 hours in the past 3 weeks. Quite simply, I had never in my life felt so comfortable behind the yoke at that point. That is not to say that I was overconfident, but rather I didn't feel like the weather was grounds for canceling the flight. I had just returned, and short of faxing a copy of my temporary PPL to the school and an e-mail to my CFI and the CP, I had not spoken to anyone there. I was very excited to show up and present my certificate I worked 5 years for from these pilots who I respected and watched me grow. Well, get a call from my CFI on the way to the airport. The fact that I, "went out to the boonies and wooed some DPE into handing me my PPL ticket at an uncontrolled airport doesn't mean crap here in the Bay Area" and "the fact that as a brand new private pilot I think it is safe to fly on a day like today is grounds for suspension, and until further review I am suspended from the school". He finished with, "I like you a whole hell of a lot, but you're going to get yourself killed in one of our airplanes". Some congratulations. How embarrassing to take that call on the way with one of my best friends and my girlfriend. Also very emotional to hear that from a guy that I respected the hell out of. Within 24 hours, I had an e-mail from the CP, "in the best interest of the school, the aircraft owners, and the general public", he was hereby refunding my left over block credit and I was no longer welcome to the place where I had spent the last 5 years of my life learning to fly. Never heard from him again, and only once more from CFI who let me know via a voicemail that I could still attend his weekly groundschool if I wanted to, though I did not ever go back and the school has since closed. I tried to stand up for myself and sent the CP an e-mail asking him to reconsider, and stating that they're the one's who trained me so to give up on me at the end of my primary training and before the start of my instrument(had this not happened, I would have immediately started that rather than taking a break from training) rather than working with me for a checkout of sorts was simply ludicrous. This was followed by an e-mail that was akin to "I like you, as a friend, but not as a pilot" kind of e-mail. My father, who I am not very close to, took it upon himself to take a trip to the school when he found out what happened. The owner informed him they thought I was too laid back, didn't take anything seriously, and didn't understand I could kill myself in an airplane. Yeah, the guy who was loading up airdisaster.com on AOL at age 6 reading freggin NTSB reports out of curiosity when my friends were outside playing doesn't think it can happen to him. When my father alluded to that, their argument shifted to they felt I was a classic case of the anti-authoritative pilot. I failed a checkride in the Bay Area, said to hell with all of you, and came back with a PPL to rub in their faces. That is how it came off to the owner who had made up his mind that I would never be trusted with the planes I learned to fly in. And that was that.

It was a crushing blow and it took me several months to save up enough to join a new club and get checked out. My confidence to do so also took a huge hit, and I didn't trust myself the way I should have my first few flights sans CFI. Ultimately, they made me think I was going to get myself or my passengers killed. What did they know about me that I didn't know about myself? Despite my care-free personality, I have always been very safety-minded no matter if I was flying, driving, or crossing the street. I know I can die anytime I leave the ground, it is always in the back of my mind as a reminder to stay composed. It took me a good 2 years to get myself back to where I was the day I earned my PPL confidence wise, and while I won't make an excuse about the delay in my training as of course I could have continued, it sure didn't help either. For me personally, the silver lining in all of this was the resulting skepticism towards putting all my eggs into a flying career has turned out great so far and I'm very happy with my life in these 6 years since I passed the checkride. I am very happy with my life, everything is coming together like a story book ending and I actually have my instrument written exam scheduled for early next month. However, for those CFIs reading, I hope you take this to heart. Do everything you can to work with someone before you cut them loose. Especially if their heart is into it. While it may just be one less student or renter on the schedule for you, the ramifications of someone they respect and trust with their life no longer wanting them around can be crushing.

Needs a TL;DR! :)

In all seriousness that sucks, man. The school definitely could have handled it better. He shares in the blame for signing you off - if students fail the mock orals they need to do them over again until all items are SAT.

While I haven't met @ChasenSFO I want to point out he is almost certainly a bright guy. In a couple of days the Google bots will crawl all over this and all these buzzwords will wind up attracting searches. To the people reading this from Google: dragging out your flight training like this can cost big time even for bright guys - 100 hour private pilot certs are a real possibility when flying once a month. Save those dollars, do a cert/rating, and save again. Rinse, repeat.
 
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