Have you ever "fired" a student?

[Deleted member 27505]

Amen. The biggest thing I see is lack of ...

FTFY.
I long ago gave up doing BFRs for anyone I hadn't previously instructed or with whom I hadn't previously flown.
Before that decision, almost every single "non-captive" BFR I gave eventually ended up scaring me... often badly.

 

[A150K]

Amen. The biggest thing I see is lack of check list usage.

I wish lack of checklist usage was the biggest thing I saw....I had one BFR pilot put the plane into an unusual attitude (60 degrees of bank in a nose down attitude in perfect day VFR weather-i'm not even joking. I let it go as far as I could to see if he would catch it with no luck) while trying to tune a radio frequency once...needless to say, I never signed his BFR. That was one of many equally crazy things I saw on some of those flights.

 

[ahsmatt7]

I only fired one student. He thought it was cute to fly from the right seat with a newly minted ppl in the left seat a day after his first solo. I was with another student when I saw him taxi out and work the radios. I gave him the benefit of the doubt but when I asked him if he flew and he said yes, I tossed him to the curb.

I enjoyed doing checkouts and BFRs. I was very upfront about them. I let the renter know that the flights were training flights after dinner not check rides. I also told them the hat until they show that they after dress proficient, they won't be getting a sign off or a checkout from me. When they realized that I wasn't going to sign them off in their time frame, they would usually ask why. I would tell them exactly what's preventing me from giving them the sign off. At that point, they would go to someone else or they would agree and I would get a temporary student out of it.

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[BarbieDreamPilot]

I only fired one student. He thought it was cute to fly from the right seat with a newly minted ppl in the left seat a day after his first solo. I was with another student when I saw him taxi out and work the radios. I gave him the benefit of the doubt but when I asked him if he flew and he said yes, I tossed him to the curb.

I enjoyed doing checkouts and BFRs. I was very upfront about them. I let the renter know that the flights were training flights after dinner not check rides. I also told them the hat until they show that they after dress proficient, they won't be getting a sign off or a checkout from me. When they realized that I wasn't going to sign them off in their time frame, they would usually ask why. I would tell them exactly what's preventing me from giving them the sign off. At that point, they would go to someone else or they would agree and I would get a temporary student out of it.

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So he was flying right seat with another pilot helping divide the workload?

 

[z987k]

Amen. The biggest thing I see is lack of check list usage.

In a piston single? Lets see... well the engine is running and the radios seem to be working, lets go fly. I realize there are varying degrees of complexity in the Piston SEL category, but.....
If someone brought me a checklist to my airplane I'd question their mental capacity to eat and breathe.

 

[ahsmatt7]

So he was flying right seat with another pilot helping divide the workload?

Yeah your exactly right!!! Man I sound like an idiot!!! Who would of thought someone who could barely speak english, fumbling over the radios trying to get a take off clearance with someone else who has barley any experience. Yep, that's really dividing the workload.

Actually looking back at it and why I got so pissed Arndt the situation, was the fact that he admitted to not only flying the airplane from the right seat which last time I checked, you can't do as a student pilot....ya know, fly airplanes with someone else in them. I also found out that he switched seats and flew from the left seat at the airport he was going to. How did I confirm this??? He was in the left seat when he landed at our airport.

Explain to me how someone who had just soloed and has no idea about the airspace outside of one's airport and can only think about what is immediately happening due to their lack of experience is actual help in the cockpit. He and this other guy went across the bay area in San Francisco to another airport.

To think a newly soloed student pilot is any help in that situation is naive and borderline dangerous.

I didn't write out the whole story because I didn't feel like it needed to be plastered. However, since you felt you needed to say what you said, here you go! Still hold your same sentiment?

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[ahsmatt7]

In a piston single? Lets see... well the engine is running and the radios seem to be working, lets go fly. I realize there are varying degrees of complexity in the Piston SEL category, but.....
If someone brought me a checklist to my airplane I'd question their mental capacity to eat and breathe.

It sounds like you're saying you don't condone checklist usage in your airplanes. Is this true?

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[z987k]

It sounds like you're saying you don't condone checklist usage in your airplanes. Is this true?

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In MY airplane? No. I have no idea what you could possibly put on it. If you managed to get the engine started, well then you've already completed everything of any importance. If you couldn't manage to get the engine started, then this is a sign that you shouldn't go flying. This goes for most small trainers.

 

[ahsmatt7]

In MY airplane? No. I have no idea what you could possibly put on it. If you managed to get the engine started, well then you've already completed everything of any importance. If you couldn't manage to get the engine started, then this is a sign that you shouldn't go flying. This goes for most small trainers.

That's not the point in a small trainer. The point of a small trainer is to teach someone the basics. That means the basics of flying and airmanship. A part of airmanship is checklist usage. It's and frame of mind that people will take with them. If someone has the same train of thought and a what you seem to preach, they are going to think they can fly any airplane without checklist. Especially when the complexity of the new airplane isn't much more than the previous airplane they flew.

I agree with you 100% in your thought process but I feel that makes sense with a person who is already a pilot with a solid amount of experience behind them. Not with a student.

My opinion may be biased a bit though. I failed my private check ride because I didn't use checklists. That wasn't the only reason but according to the dpe, it was the biggest issue he saw in the flight.

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[killbilly]

That's not the point in a small trainer. The point of a small trainer is to teach someone the basics. That means the basics of flying and airmanship. A part of airmanship is checklist usage. It's and frame of mind that people will take with them. If someone has the same train of thought and a what you seem to preach, they are going to think they can fly any airplane without checklist. Especially when the complexity of the new airplane isn't much more than the previous airplane they flew.

I agree with you 100% in your thought process but I feel that makes sense with a person who is already a pilot with a solid amount of experience behind them. Not with a student.

My opinion may be biased a bit though. I failed my private check ride because I didn't use checklists. That wasn't the only reason but according to the dpe, it was the biggest issue he saw in the flight.

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It's true that most piston singles aren't terribly complex in their checklists - even the complex-by-legal-definition like the PA28R I've been flying. But as someone who had to have more than one CFI hammer checklist usage into his head, it's not necessarily about the checklist...

...it's about procedural thinking at the more critical phases of flight. Because it matters a lot more when you move into bigger, more complex airplanes.

I've never made a CFI fire me (I've had one or two who probably wanted to at various short points while they tried to help my dumb ass learn something) but I have gotten in a hurry in the past and missed something because I didn't run a checklist - a couple of CFIs from this very website helped me change that behavior.

Sometimes it's little things that let the holes in the swiss cheese align...sounds dorky, but that whole "it can happen to me" antidote really makes sense.

 

[ahsmatt7]

It's true that most piston singles aren't terribly complex in their checklists - even the complex-by-legal-definition like the PA28R I've been flying. But as someone who had to have more than one CFI hammer checklist usage into his head, it's not necessarily about the checklist...

...it's about procedural thinking at the more critical phases of flight. Because it matters a lot more when you move into bigger, more complex airplanes.

I've never made a CFI fire me (I've had one or two who probably wanted to at various short points while they tried to help my dumb ass learn something) but I have gotten in a hurry in the past and missed something because I didn't run a checklist - a couple of CFIs from this very website helped me change that behavior.

Sometimes it's little things that let the holes in the swiss cheese align...sounds dorky, but that whole "it can happen to me" antidote really makes sense.

I agree 100%

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[derg]

I sure have.

 

[TrustMeI'maPilot]

Yeah your exactly right!!! Man I sound like an idiot!!! Who would of thought someone who could barely speak english, fumbling over the radios trying to get a take off clearance with someone else who has barley any experience. Yep, that's really dividing the workload.

Actually looking back at it and why I got so pissed Arndt the situation, was the fact that he admitted to not only flying the airplane from the right seat which last time I checked, you can't do as a student pilot....ya know, fly airplanes with someone else in them. I also found out that he switched seats and flew from the left seat at the airport he was going to. How did I confirm this??? He was in the left seat when he landed at our airport.

Explain to me how someone who had just soloed and has no idea about the airspace outside of one's airport and can only think about what is immediately happening due to their lack of experience is actual help in the cockpit. He and this other guy went across the bay area in San Francisco to another airport.

To think a newly soloed student pilot is any help in that situation is naive and borderline dangerous.

I didn't write out the whole story because I didn't feel like it needed to be plastered. However, since you felt you needed to say what you said, here you go! Still hold your same sentiment?

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How is that any different from a PPL taking a friend or significant other up and letting them fly a little? And since when do we have regulations on what seat we have to sit in?

 

[Jordan93]

In MY airplane? No. I have no idea what you could possibly put on it. If you managed to get the engine started, well then you've already completed everything of any importance. If you couldn't manage to get the engine started, then this is a sign that you shouldn't go flying. This goes for most small trainers.

Law of primacy. If they don't use checklists now, they're not going to use checklists once they start flying bigger, more complex aircraft.

 

[ahsmatt7]

How is that any different from a PPL taking a friend or significant other up and letting them fly a little? And since when do we have regulations on what seat we have to sit in?

You're right on both counts. We do however have regulations for students acting as pic or being pic with others on board. Do we not?

For the sake of argument, go up to the faa and tell them that you're a ppl and you take people up and let them fly. Tell me what you think they might say about that. I don't think the faa will like a ppl playing instructor.

With my students, there isn't a spirit of the law and letter of the law argumrnt. It's a pure letter of the law attitude. If the regs says you can't do it, you can't do it. No matter what seat you sit in. When they get their certificate, then they can decide how to bend the regs as they see fit.

Besides, this isn't an argument about what seat the student sat in. It's about argument of following rules and not putting yourself in a dangerous or illegal situation. Or putting yourself in ad situation that gives the impression that you could have possibly done something wrong.



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[TrustMeI'maPilot]

You're right on both counts. We do however have regulations for students acting as pic or being pic with others on board. Do we not?

For the sake of argument, go up to the faa and tell them that you're a ppl and you take people up and let them fly. Tell me what you think they might say about that. I don't think the faa will like a ppl playing instructor.

With my students, there isn't a spirit of the law and letter of the law argumrnt. It's a pure letter of the law attitude. If the regs says you can't do it, you can't do it. No matter what seat you sit in. When they get their certificate, then they can decide how to bend the regs as they see fit.

Besides, this isn't an argument about what seat the student sat in. It's about argument of following rules and not putting yourself in a dangerous or illegal situation. Or putting yourself in ad situation that gives the impression that you could have possibly done something wrong.



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I still don't understand, you said there was a PPL on board right? Which means he was acting PIC, your student is just a passenger. I could go rent a plane right now, put my wife in the left seat and let her fly it around. The FAA doesn't care because it's not illegal. The only thing illegal in the situation would be if your student logged the time.

Now if your student went flying with a non pilot then you obviously have a valid argument, but that's not what you said happened.

 

[ahsmatt7]

I still don't understand, you said there was a PPL on board right? Which means he was acting PIC, your student is just a passenger. I could go rent a plane right now, put my wife in the left seat and let her fly it around. The FAA doesn't care because it's not illegal. The only thing illegal in the situation would be if your student logged the time.

Now if your student went flying with a non pilot then you obviously have a valid argument, but that's not what you said happened.

You do have a valid point and I agree with it. At the end of the day the biggest reason I dropped the student was because at thst time, other instructors had found out their students where doing what mine did bit did in fact log the time. I didn't want the headache.

I also did not want my students flying around with anyone else because the other students at my the flight school because of other reasons I would rather not go into. Mainly hazardous attitudes.

You might think my utilitarian attitude is overkill, however with fresh students, it was the only option.

I do agree that the student never did anything illegal, however with the faa already digging there teeth into the flight school for other reasons, I covered my button as well as set rules in place for my students which covered there's.


If you want all the details, pm me.
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[USMCmech]

You're right on both counts. We do however have regulations for students acting as pic or being pic with others on board. Do we not?

For the sake of argument, go up to the faa and tell them that you're a ppl and you take people up and let them fly. Tell me what you think they might say about that. I don't think the faa will like a ppl playing instructor.

There is no regulation anywhere in the FARs prohibiting a PPL pilot from letting a passenger (which is all your former student was in that scenario) take the controls on a Pt 91 flight. Unless you are doing something well outside of the norm, I can't imagine a FSDO inspector caring even one bit. You school may certainly have a policy against it, but the FAA won't care.

In fact, you don't even have to be a CFI to "teach" in an airplane. A CFI is only required for training toward a certificate, rating, or currency requirements (such as a BFR). Your friendly neighborhood avionics tech can fly with you to "teach" you how to use that cool G1000 you just installed. A lot of specialized "instruction" in unique parts of this industry such as Ag Aviation are done by pilots who may not hold a CFI.

Besides, this isn't an argument about what seat the student sat in. It's about argument of following rules and not putting yourself in a dangerous or illegal situation. Or putting yourself in ad situation that gives the impression that you could have possibly done something wrong.

From your other posts, it sounds like there is a lot more to this story. Possibly some widespread misbehavior by students throughout your school. I fully agree that this kind of hazardous attitude needs to be stop punched, even if the students did not break the letter of the law.

It sounds like you're saying you don't condone checklist usage in your airplanes. Is this true?

Checklist usage is important in small airplanes, both for immediate reasons and for building good habits for the future. Most light training aircraft only need very basic checklists, such as "Controls, Instruments, Gas, Flaps, Trim" or "GUMP". The issue is how many schools have created 50+ page "how to fly" manuals that only distract students from their primary job of flying the airplane. If you can't fit a normal ops checklist in normal sized font on a double sided piece of laminated paper, then you are doing something wrong.

 

[Jordan93]

Checklist usage is important in small airplanes, both for immediate reasons and for building good habits for the future. Most light training aircraft only need very basic checklists, such as "Controls, Instruments, Gas, Flaps, Trim" or "GUMP". The issue is how many schools have created 50+ page "how to fly" manuals that only distract students from their primary job of flying the airplane. If you can't fit a normal ops checklist in normal sized font on a double sided piece of laminated paper, then you are doing something wrong.

This. The checklists my school makes is a small two sided laminated paper. We use that for every plane in our fleet. Like I mentioned in my other post, if my student doesn't have strong checklist discipline when he flies a 172 what do you think is going to happen when he flies a 747. It doesn't matter how simple the plane is, it's the act of using a checklist that is important.

 

[ahsmatt7]

There is no regulation anywhere in the FARs prohibiting a PPL pilot from letting a passenger (which is all your former student was in that scenario) take the controls on a Pt 91 flight. Unless you are doing something well outside of the norm, I can't imagine a FSDO inspector caring even one bit. You school may certainly have a policy against it, but the FAA won't care.

In fact, you don't even have to be a CFI to "teach" in an airplane. A CFI is only required for training toward a certificate, rating, or currency requirements (such as a BFR). Your friendly neighborhood avionics tech can fly with you to "teach" you how to use that cool G1000 you just installed. A lot of specialized "instruction" in unique parts of this industry such as Ag Aviation are done by pilots who may not hold a CFI.



From your other posts, it sounds like there is a lot more to this story. Possibly some widespread misbehavior by students throughout your school. I fully agree that this kind of hazardous attitude needs to be stop punched, even if the students did not break the letter of the law.



Checklist usage is important in small airplanes, both for immediate reasons and for building good habits for the future. Most light training aircraft only need very basic checklists, such as "Controls, Instruments, Gas, Flaps, Trim" or "GUMP". The issue is how many schools have created 50+ page "how to fly" manuals that only distract students from their primary job of flying the airplane. If you can't fit a normal ops checklist in normal sized font on a double sided piece of laminated paper, then you are doing something wrong.

There's a lot more to the story. Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding. [emoji3]

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