Gulfstream vs King Air

[rframe]

On a slightly more serious note, how about breakaway brake controllers?

Some utility/horse/boat trailers have a small cable that's attached to the truck. If it becomes unhitched, the cable gets pulled and it activates the trailer brakes so that it comes to a stop on its own.

Seems like a simple addition to a $10+million dollar airplane. Could be an electronic relay that activates a hydraulic accumulator.

STC baby, I'm gonna be rich!!!

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Seems like a simple addition to a $10+million dollar airplane. Could be an electronic relay that activates a hydraulic accumulator.

STC baby, I'm gonna be rich!!!

Most, if not all, large jets need an electrical source to power the hydraulic system. And just because you hook up power doesnt mean you get hydraulics. The system must be activated from within the cockpit, which goes back to the issue of allowing line crew into the cockpit.

The whole notion of modifying aircraft and tow equipment to avert this kind of accident in the future is kind of like saying we need to install poop catchers on every seagull. It just isn't that big of an issue to warrant the time and money it would require.

 

[rframe]

That's why you'd use an accumulator, it'd store a hydraulic charge that could be released to pressurize the brakes without any power to the rest of the ship. It'd be charged at shutdown, and disengaged at startup (so a failure of the accumulator wouldn't fire the breaks during a take-off roll or something). It'd actually be a pretty simple system.

But, I doubt too many people would see towbar breakage as a major risk, at least not enough to retrofit. Could be a simple addition to a new jet though.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Could be a simple addition to a new jet though.

I guess it could be.

Pitch it. Seriously. Try to work your way up through Savannah until someone listens. Use this incident as your reasoning. Who knows what it could lead to.

 

[MikeD]

No sarcasm. Dead serious. That's how the military avoids accidents with tow bar failures. It's saved some serious $$$ too. It's proven and it works.

If the military does it with $40 million jets. Why can't civilians do it with $60 million Gulfstreams?

I think it would depend on the type of civil aircraft, since I don't believe all of them can have braking ability on electrical power alone, parking or otherwise. Whereas the mil fighters mostly are standard in that way.

 

[Schinpop]

Planes shouldn't crash....ever, too.

But they do.

These things happen.

You are comparing a complex machine operating in a dynamic environment to a simple piece of metal that is most likely overdesigned for the job. It is impossible to design an airplane that is 100% reliable. I wouldn't think that is true for a towbar. Either it was under-designed, faulty, or mis-used. If it was faulty, the investigation would show the cracked weld or other defect, and hopefully suggest some PM.

 

[MikeD]

You are comparing a complex machine operating in a dynamic environment to a simple piece of metal that is most likely overdesigned for the job. It is impossible to design an airplane that is 100% reliable. I wouldn't think that is true for a towbar. Either it was under-designed, faulty, or mis-used. If it was faulty, the investigation would show the cracked weld or other defect, and hopefully suggest some PM.

Or, it just had a mechanical failure. Things break. That's life. Crap happens. Not every situation has to have some deep or nefarious reason behind why it occurred. It could be all, some, or none of the above that I bolded.

Im simply comparing to mechanical items.........whether simple or complex.

 

[rwgb1984]

OR

When you pay a guy $9.50 and hour you get what you pay for.

This. Having worked in line service I do have to say that what an FBO expects from a line guy is not proportional to the wage they are willing to pay. Most I have made hourly working the line is $13.00/hr. Most I have made period: $17.75 (with raises every six months capped at two and a half years of service which equals $20.25/hr.) Where was this job at? Walmart. In a distribution center. Literally putting boxes into a trailer. Less technical, not much liability in terms of customer property/equipment, much greater safety margins. I think I've shared enough.

 

[knot4u]

That's why you'd use an accumulator, it'd store a hydraulic charge that could be released to pressurize the brakes without any power to the rest of the ship. It'd be charged at shutdown, and disengaged at startup (so a failure of the accumulator wouldn't fire the breaks during a take-off roll or something). It'd actually be a pretty simple system.

But, I doubt too many people would see towbar breakage as a major risk, at least not enough to retrofit. Could be a simple addition to a new jet though.

Gulfstream much?

 

[pntbllr233]

We got a notice today saying they're looking into mechanical failure. We were told the head of the bar sheared completely off. The poor guy towing was doing everything correctly and tried to stop it, but that evidently didn't work. I work for the FBO involved and our bars are inspected a minimum of once a month. We've pulled all our bars manufactured by the company in question. Stuff like this happens and it doesn't always end well. There's only so much someone can do once it breaks away.

 

[popaviator]

noooooo wtf

 

[Schinpop]

Or, it just had a mechanical failure. Things break. That's life. Crap happens. Not every situation has to have some deep or nefarious reason behind why it occurred. It could be all, some, or none of the above that I bolded.

Yep, I agree. Things break. Crap happens. Assuming you make it past infant mortality, this generally happens when the component reaches it's design life. If it fails in the meantime, there is a defect in manufacturing or the component was overstressed - or both. A tow bar is pretty simple. And, yes, I'd put them in the category of "shouldn't fail - ever". If indeed the head sheered off, and it wasn't due to an acute overstress, periodic inspection should have indicated weakness. I'm merely suggesting that when something like this happens, the result of the failure anaylsis should improve the PM procedure.

 

[killbilly]

The Gulfstream was being towed on a slight incline and the towbar broke, Gulfstream was rolling, line guys threw some chocks under it, it rolled right over them, they threw some more down, it rolled right over them, and it rolled into the King Air that was parked at the FBO.

I get a mental picture of this similar to a bunch of neanderthals trying to bring down a woolly mammoth with spears...

 

[SteveCostello]

At nearly 50,000 lbs., I'm kind surprised that the King Air even stopped it.

 

[rframe]

Gulfstream much?

Huh?

 

[Hacker15e]

We got a notice today saying they're looking into mechanical failure. We were told the head of the bar sheared completely off. The poor guy towing was doing everything correctly and tried to stop it, but that evidently didn't work. I work for the FBO involved and our bars are inspected a minimum of once a month. We've pulled all our bars manufactured by the company in question. Stuff like this happens and it doesn't always end well. There's only so much someone can do once it breaks away.

There ya go...thanks for real information rather than just speculation.

 

[MikeD]

Yep, I agree. Things break. Crap happens. Assuming you make it past infant mortality, this generally happens when the component reaches it's design life. If it fails in the meantime, there is a defect in manufacturing or the component was overstressed - or both. A tow bar is pretty simple. And, yes, I'd put them in the category of "shouldn't fail - ever". If indeed the head sheered off, and it wasn't due to an acute overstress, periodic inspection should have indicated weakness. I'm merely suggesting that when something like this happens, the result of the failure anaylsis should improve the PM procedure.

Im sure something will be learned from it. But insofar as something like this never happening again, its going to continue to, for any number of causal factors.

 

[MikeD]

There ya go...thanks for real information rather than just speculation.

Speculation....sometimes informed, oftentimes uninformed.....the JC hallmark.

 

[SteveC]

Eh, real information is over rated. If you don't believe me just watch the TV news stations.

 

[Tommay85]

Makes for a more lively conversation anyways.