Guess they didn't learn the first time.. Delta's new KSEA-PAJN run.

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One more thing - no matter where I go in the country, it's always a dong-measuring contest when talking about Alaska. Everyone says, "it's not that bad, that's just like KABC! I've seen blizzards, that's not that cold!" If you want to prove to yourself that this flying is easy, come on up and do it - it isn't that hard! That said, local knowledge is key up here. When I go someplace in the state I'm not familiar with - for example, a recent trip to PAKO - I called up the pilots who were out there to find out about what's going on. When in Rome, do as the Romans do (/burgandyvoice).

I'll be honest, I don't even want to deal with it anymore a lot of the time. I'm tired of having to call up unreliable village agents to find out if the runway is going to be so soft I'll sink the main in so deep I'll have to get a truck to help pull me out. I'm tired of having no real idea what the forecast is going to bring, because the forecast has been woefully inaccurate as long as I can remember. I'm tired of shutting down the airplane, and having to jump out and put blankets on the engine so that the -40°C temps don't make leaving impossible. The flying 8hrs per day 5 or 6 days a week in the summer and 14hr days suck - especially when you fly 10 legs on those days, and load and unload yourself on every leg. But no, it isn't that hard, anyone can do this kind of flying, but I will say that it's way more difficult than any other type of flying that I have done in my limited career - I'm sure that there are more difficult and challenging types of flying out there. What keeps me doing it for now is that it's rewarding, it's challenging, and it's better money than I can make without a college degree, anywhere else and still be home pretty much every night.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Alaska also has a much higher rate of pilots per capita than the lower 48. Has anyone done the math to get a per capita accident rate corrected for that type of factor? Or perhaps one per hours flown.


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There's a NIOSH study about death rates - pilots in Alaska are 2nd only to crab fisherman.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Nothing. Because Alaska.
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Just do like crossing Russia when it first opened: have a local in the 3rd seat to keep you legit.

Perhaps going into Quito, Santiago, MEX, GDL (insert more LA countries), Kathmandu, Bagram et. al, you could do the same.

Perhaps have you & @Derg as specially qualled 3rd seaters.

Oh wait....
 
ppragman said:
Nothing. But I doubt they're going to do as well as everyone thinks - especially if they're not going to put the money into getting the super-duper approaches that AS has.
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The money is being spent to develop Delta approaches in there. My expense report for the onsite obstacle survey in February was approved and my corporate card bill paid. We've developed the procedures, performed onsite obstacle survey, and are getting ready to load them in the FMS to test fly them in the sim. I'm writing the obstacle survey results packet to turn in to the FAA. Once approved we can officially begin sim testing. One step at a a time in the process with check marks from the federales otherwise you have to start all over again.

Procedures aren't going to happen for this summer. We've had to tell them same people internally at Delta time and time again that we're busting tail to get it done and approved before we start training the 737 guys in September. Assuming we're going to serve JNU next summer. A normal turn time to develop and implement these things in-house for us is 12-18 months. There's only 3 of us in the company that hold FAA authorization to develop them. We're still learning the intricacies of it all while AS has 6 people dedicated to their in-house development. 2 technical pilots and a performance engineer with other day to day responsibilities just can't turn them like AS can.
 
AUAeropilot said:
The money is being spent to develop Delta approaches in there. My expense report for the onsite obstacle survey in February was approved and my corporate card bill paid. We've developed the procedures, performed onsite obstacle survey, and are getting ready to load them in the FMS to test fly them in the sim. I'm writing the obstacle survey results packet to turn in to the FAA. Once approved we can officially begin sim testing. One step at a a time in the process with check marks from the federales otherwise you have to start all over again.

Procedures aren't going to happen for this summer. We've had to tell them same people internally at Delta time and time again that we're busting tail to get it done and approved before we start training the 737 guys in September. Assuming we're going to serve JNU next summer. A normal turn time to develop and implement these things in-house for us is 12-18 months. There's only 3 of us in the company that hold FAA authorization to develop them. We're still learning the intricacies of it all while AS has 6 people dedicated to their in-house development. 2 technical pilots and a performance engineer with other day to day responsibilities just can't turn them like AS can.
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Nice, that's a hell of a project to take on. Without a "good" approach into JNU, your reliability out of the gate will suffer - if you can match Alaska's ability to make it in, then you'll be successful. If you could beat Alaska's approach down the Gastineau that gets them to 3/4 and 300' you'd pick up market share quick. Passengers there are savvy - you get in on a day that Alaska can't and you'll fill airplanes in Juneau - it's all reliability in that market.

If you've got the good LDA approach, if memory serves, you cross Coghlan at 1200' - that'll probably be good enough initially, but depending on your schedule, that runs the risk of sending you out to Sisters to burn Jet A about 10 to 20% of the time in my estimation.
 
AUAeropilot said:
The money is being spent to develop Delta approaches in there. My expense report for the onsite obstacle survey in February was approved and my corporate card bill paid. We've developed the procedures, performed onsite obstacle survey, and are getting ready to load them in the FMS to test fly them in the sim. I'm writing the obstacle survey results packet to turn in to the FAA. Once approved we can officially begin sim testing. One step at a a time in the process with check marks from the federales otherwise you have to start all over again.

Procedures aren't going to happen for this summer. We've had to tell them same people internally at Delta time and time again that we're busting tail to get it done and approved before we start training the 737 guys in September. Assuming we're going to serve JNU next summer. A normal turn time to develop and implement these things in-house for us is 12-18 months. There's only 3 of us in the company that hold FAA authorization to develop them. We're still learning the intricacies of it all while AS has 6 people dedicated to their in-house development. 2 technical pilots and a performance engineer with other day to day responsibilities just can't turn them like AS can.
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By the way, it's really cool that you develop those - how did you get the authorization from the feds to develop approaches?
 
ppragman said:
By the way, it's really cool that you develop those - how did you get the authorization from the feds to develop approaches?
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certificate.gif
 
ppragman said:
By the way, it's really cool that you develop those - how did you get the authorization from the feds to develop approaches?
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FAA in OKC sent some gentlemen out 2 years ago to lead the Performance Based Navigation Instrument Procedure design course for a group of about 5 in ATL. 3 of us Delta guys, a guy from a biz jet operator, and a younger guy whose father designs procedures for helicopters at hospitals and helipads (using WASS systems I believe) attended. The Delta guys then had what was basically a practical exam from the FAA guys on performing obstacle surveys, sim testing and evaluation, and finally flight evaluation. (Took an empty 737-800 over to SAV to evaluate some approaches.) So I have a certificate of completion from the FAA stating I completed the course and a Letter of Authorization from the FAA stating I am approved to perform obstacle survey, sim eval, and flight eval activities.
 
AUAeropilot said:
FAA in OKC sent some gentlemen out 2 years ago to lead the Performance Based Navigation Instrument Procedure design course for a group of about 5 in ATL. 3 of us Delta guys, a guy from a biz jet operator, and a younger guy whose father designs procedures for helicopters at hospitals and helipads (using WASS systems I believe) attended. The Delta guys then had what was basically a practical exam from the FAA guys on performing obstacle surveys, sim testing and evaluation, and finally flight evaluation. (Took an empty 737-800 over to SAV to evaluate some approaches.) So I have a certificate of completion from the FAA stating I completed the course and a Letter of Authorization from the FAA stating I am approved to perform obstacle survey, sim eval, and flight eval activities.
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Nice - I'd like to do something like this - that's pretty cool.

Also, what kind of minimums do you guys think you're going to get on the JNU approach?
 
ppragman said:
Nice - I'd like to do something like this - that's pretty cool.

Also, what kind of minimums do you guys think you're going to get on the JNU approach?
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If we can match what AS has we'll consider it a win. Since AS basically designed their procedures while the regs were being written for PBN procedures we don't even know if we recreate their procedures exactly whether they will pass current criteria. AS has been playing the game much longer than we have and they may have waivers in place to mitigate criteria violations. Their approval for this might be something Delta could get eventually but we know we're new to the party so if we can level the playing field and at least match their minimums those of us designing the procedures would mark it as a huge success.
 
ppragman said:
I'm not familiar with - for example, a recent trip to PAKO - I called up the pilots who were out there to find out about what's going on. When in Rome, do as the Romans do (/burgandyvoice).
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Kotlik trip? I have spent a bit of time there lately. There, EMO, and Alakunak. BTW, I wouldnt go to Alakunak anytime soon.

NVM, Nikolai.
 
SurferLucas said:
Word out here is that the gate DL intends to use is "first come/first serve", so I imagine someone at Angle Lake has said "Put a 737 in there ahead of them".
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Oh that will be fun to watch the High School Drama.

SeaTac news has DL trying to talk the Port into moving UAL to the S-Gates, VX to the Concourse B, USAirways to D with AA, and DL taking over all of Concourse A (14 total gates, including WB gates). The Port is planning on adding FIS services to A, as the S Gates are jammed in the afternoon push and DL overflows into B.
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I can see that working. Some logistical issues and I am sure Alaska Airlines will try to block that with the Port of Seattle, etc. It is going to be interesting to watch.
 
mikecweb said:
Your dead to me.
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I was a hair away from sending you a message saying I was going to be there, but saw you were playing in San Diego. I have another one in a few weeks, will keep you informed as I am trying to get rid of that trip. Does that work?
 
It's not just the terrain. It is challenging terrain combined with harsh weather. There are airports serviced by airlines all over the world that are similar to ones in Alaska but that do not have the day in and day out challenging weather conditions. Some places/airports in southeast can get 160 plus inches of rain a year with low pressure systems that would be categorized as Hurricanes/typhoons elsewhere but in southeast these conditions won't make the news. Any airline can fly here but the people here expect consistent service (like anywhere) and if a company doesn't have low minimum approaches and there is a nasty summer it would be hard to compete with Alaska Air.
Just my opinion.
 
Roger Roger said:
Word on the street (from the FSDO) is that they will only be doing the special LDA. Which is 600' or so higher mins than the AS RNP. Which is exactly what @Capt. Chaos said at the start of this thread.
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Y'all were implying as the airport manager in PAJN wasn't notified prior it was going to fail....

The point I am saying is there is an attitude that Delta can't do it as they don't have the 'local' knowledge. While local knowledge is important, so is having excellent resources to create the tools to make it happen.
 
ppragman said:
Passengers there are savvy - you get in on a day that Alaska can't and you'll fill airplanes in Juneau - it's all reliability in that market.
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Isn't Delta going to do it seasonally? If so, they are probably going after the summer tourist passengers who aren't the regulars and it won't be as noticeable if Delta has to divert once every few weeks.
 
Seggy said:
Y'all were implying as the airport manager in PAJN wasn't notified prior it was going to fail....

The point I am saying is there is an attitude that Delta can't do it as they don't have the 'local' knowledge. While local knowledge is important, so is having excellent resources to create the tools to make it happen.
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It just seems to me from the outside looking in, that the plan wasn't put together as deliberately as one would normally expect from a company like Delta. More of a "Let's go pee in Alaska's backyard, that should get 'em to re-think this whole SLC plan" They needed to do this now - ready or not, or the point would have been lost. There's no question DL could eventually make it a successful venture, I'm just not sure that's the point of it.
 
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