Green vs Magenta needle on VOR Approach

[Roger Roger]

Talking Raw data Green needles where you actually have to twist the CDI. They don’t just auto sequence for you with all the new waypoints. Instruments has gotten lazy.

Psh, new fangled kids and their CDIs. If you’re a real man you listen to the As and Ns.

 

[MikeD]

Psh, new fangled kids and their CDIs. If you’re a real man you listen to the As and Ns.

Even better, just dead reckon through the Wx.

 

[Roger Roger]

Even better, just dead reckon through the Wx.

Fly like an airmail pilot, die like an airmail pilot

 

[ahw01]

Fly like an airmail pilot, die like an airmail pilot

Ok little prince…

 

[Wardogg]

This is my point, avionics regression is not getting back to the basics. It’s regression. We don’t go back to black over black ADIs just to keep the skillz up.

 

[ahw01]

This is my point, avionics regression is not getting back to the basics. It’s regression. We don’t go back to black over black ADIs just to keep the skillz up.

We definitely should. Civilian GPS is rather spoofable and jammable. What does M-Code mean for GPS simulation? | CAST Navigation

 

[inigo88]

Talking Raw data Green needles where you actually have to twist the CDI. They don’t just auto sequence for you with all the new waypoints. Instruments has gotten lazy.

Time, Turn, Twist, Throttle, Talk!

And I have a long rant I could go into about Twist becoming harder to do as avionics engineers at places like Garmin start designing HSIs without a course knob (ex: G5).

 

[Wardogg]

We definitely should. Civilian GPS is rather spoofable and jammable. What does M-Code mean for GPS simulation? | CAST Navigation

You better start petitioning congress for some money now then. You’re about to be out of time.

https://www.faa.gov/ato/navigation-programs/vor-target-discontinuance-list

 

[Minuteman]

View attachment 79569
Different max, no radial line

I realize you have slept many times since this photo, but it appears you are outside the service volume of the tuned VOR. That could be a reason for not having a bearing pointer or DME.

 

[Roger Roger]

I realize you have slept many times since this photo, but it appears you are outside the service volume of the tuned VOR. That could be a reason for not having a bearing pointer or DME.

There’s a bearing pointer in that picture. Just no green laser beam on the selected radial.

 

[ahw01]

You better start petitioning congress for some money now then. You’re about to be out of time.

https://www.faa.gov/ato/navigation-programs/vor-target-discontinuance-list

almost like there's another side to the story

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gbng/vormon

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Because it isn’t realistic to 98% of what students will see once they leave the school house.

I agree with @MikeD on this. If you are going to fly a VOR or even a LOC approach for practice, green needles only. And no approaches requiring DME unless you have real DME.

And it’s because of realism. With extremely rare exceptions, at least in the US, the widespread availability of RNAV approaches most everywhere means the only time you will ever fly a VOR approach for real will be during a GPS failure.

 

[Wardogg]

I agree with @MikeD on this. If you are going to fly a VOR or even a LOC approach for practice, green needles only. And no approaches requiring DME unless you have real DME.

And it’s because of realism. With extremely rare exceptions, at least in the US, the widespread availability of RNAV approaches most everywhere means the only time you will ever fly a VOR approach for real will be during a GPS failure.

In what world, 121, 91, 135, do you have the authorization to burn extra fuel to go shoot full procedure raw data VOR approaches for practice? If I brought up the idea to our chief pilot I’d be laughed out of the office. So maybe once a year I might get to do one at FSI if we can squeeze it in somewhere between all the scripted stuff they have to accomplish in there?

This is the same argument about carrying paper charts. What if the tablet fails? What then? Sure, GPS may be spoofable and may go down but here in the states it’s highly unlikely. So much so that not one union, not one instructional institution, not one regulatory body is out there saying, practicing raw data VOR approaches is a good idea, just in case.

 

[ahw01]

In what world, 121, 91, 135, do you have the authorization to burn extra fuel to go shoot full procedure raw data VOR approaches for practice? If I brought up the idea to our chief pilot I’d be laughed out of the office. So maybe once a year I might get to do one at FSI if we can squeeze it in somewhere between all the scripted stuff they have to accomplish in there?

This is the same argument about carrying paper charts. What if the tablet fails? What then? Sure, GPS may be spoofable and may go down but here in the states it’s highly unlikely. So much so that not one union, not one instructional institution, not one regulatory body is out there saying, practicing raw data VOR approaches is a good idea, just in case.

Well the professionals here will keep doing what we’re doing

 

[Wardogg]

Well the professionals here will keep doing what we’re doing

Thumbs high.

 

[Wardogg]

Well the professionals here will keep doing what we’re doing

The FAA also agrees with me which is why it’s no longer required. It’s an option, but not a requirement.

Final Goodbye to (Required) VOR Approaches! - Aviation Ideas and Discussion!

FAA has finally cleared up confusion for instrument training and testing, by rescinding the "Glasser Letter;" (bye to required VOR approaches!)

safeblog.org

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

In what world, 121, 91, 135, do you have the authorization to burn extra fuel to go shoot full procedure raw data VOR approaches for practice? If I brought up the idea to our chief pilot I’d be laughed out of the office. So maybe once a year I might get to do one at FSI if we can squeeze it in somewhere between all the scripted stuff they have to accomplish in there?

This is the same argument about carrying paper charts. What if the tablet fails? What then? Sure, GPS may be spoofable and may go down but here in the states it’s highly unlikely. So much so that not one union, not one instructional institution, not one regulatory body is out there saying, practicing raw data VOR approaches is a good idea, just in case.

Your argument ultimately comes down to, there's no reason to practice VOR approaches at all. And there are now people in the GA world who don't even have a VLOC receiver in the airplane, so that's a reasonable viewpoint. But if you are going to practice, practice for the only reality there is for those approaches.

 

[ahw01]

Thumbs high.

The Flight Engineer in you wants things done properly, let him out…

 

[Wardogg]

Your argument ultimately comes down to, there's no reason to practice VOR approaches at all. And there are now people in the GA world who don't even have a VLOC receiver in the airplane, so that's a reasonable viewpoint. But if you are going to practice, practice for the only reality there is for those approaches.

I am saying it’s getting to that point.

The Flight Engineer in you wants things done properly, let him out…

Ouch. Right in the feels.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The FAA also agrees with me which is why it’s no longer required. It’s an option, but not a requirement.

Final Goodbye to (Required) VOR Approaches! - Aviation Ideas and Discussion!

FAA has finally cleared up confusion for instrument training and testing, by rescinding the "Glasser Letter;" (bye to required VOR approaches!)

safeblog.org

The FAA agrees with both you and me that the use of ground-based navaids is not a requirement. VOR? Heck, you don't even have to fly an ILS for an instrument checkride or IPC.

That's a very different question than how best to maintain proficiency with ground-based approaches if you are going to bother using them.

I am saying it’s getting to that point.

We agree.