Good/Bad Instructors

Ehhhhh... In theory it sounds good. But it's not entirely true. It's amazing what you learn from observation and flying with LOTS of other pilots of all skill levels. Anyone out there who has 1000+ dual and well rounded career as a CFI can back me up on this.

Yes. The idea of stick and rudder skills not improving as an instructor is a myth, in my opinion.

However, I could also point out how very few accidents, at least in the realm of professional flying, occur as a result of poor stick and rudder skills. Most originate from poor decision making and/or CRM skills.

My point being, when it comes to stick and rudder skills, we're all pretty much equal assuming we don't wash out of training. Good enough to pass an ATP ride is good enough to fly the line. I'm not really impressed by pilots who talk about safely shooting single engine approaches down to minimums because....uhhh...we *all* can do that. In professional flying, that's actually pretty basic. Stick and rudder skills aren't as priceless of a commodity as many pilots would like to believe. I don't care if you can hold altitude within 25 feet or 50 feet, because either way, it's good enough. However, your ADM/CRM skills will play a huge role in your survival on the line, as well as how much drama you create with fellow crewmembers.

Come to think of it, this would be a fascinating statistic...how many accidents occur in the Part 135/121 world, broken down by cause, then analyzed by how much time the PIC spent as an instructor.

I highly doubt this data exists, but it would be interesting to look at.
 
I'm tired of hearing in threads that I don't want to instruct, I won't be a good teacher, it will be a disservice to my student. Random news flash, very few of us in this profession want to be career instructors. However this is probably one of the best (not the only) path to pad that logbook to the next step. In my opinion everyone should have to do 1000 hours of dual given, it's just another skill that makes you a well rounded aviator.

Also just because you don't want to instruct, doesn't mean you'll be a bad instructor. This argument is getting annoying too. I really disliked instructing, however I knew it was a means to a end. Even though I really didn't enjoy what I was doing, I still worked very hard at it, and was a successful instructor. I'm not trying to say it was all low's, there was a lot of highs and it was very rewarding work.

I guess the point I'm trying to make with this is anyone can be a successful instructor and get paid to fly airplanes at very low hours. Stop trying to come up with every justification you can to not CFI, and just suck it up for a year or two. Trust me, you'll look back, and you'll appreciate those couple years banging it out in the right seat of a cessna/piper.

/randomrant
Don't take this wrong, but your first paragraph should have said, "However this is probably one of the best paths to become a well rounded pilot." Like I said, don't take this wrong...
 
I've flown every low time odd job there is, which includes but is not limited to, CFI'ing, flying lines, aerial photography...etc. By far, CFI'ing was the most challenging, and helped the most to create a well-rounded aviator. Flying is only part of the job -Z, a small part, CFI'ing really taught me this lesson.
 
when it comes to stick and rudder skills, we're all pretty much equal assuming we don't wash out of training. Good enough to pass an ATP ride is good enough to fly the line.

Stick and rudder skills aren't as priceless of a commodity as many pilots would like to believe.

I think you are taking the skills and knowledge needed for adequate execution of the job under normal circumstances (ergo, a 121 training program and/or an ATP checkride) and deriving two wholly false conclusions from that.

First off, yes, you are correct that for normal everyday operations, proficiency on an ATP checkride is sufficient to fly the line, and that no special stick and rudder skills are needed to babysit an FMS as it flies you through the National Airspace System and land the airplane safely after clicking off George.

That fact, however, is far from supporting your conclusions from that, that we're all equal in stick and rudder skills "assuming we don't wash out", or that stick-and-rudder is not a priceless for an aviator.

Your first statement is like saying that all humans with a college degree are intellectually equal. That's completely ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination -- that makes Stephen Hawking and I intellectual peers by that standard. An ATP checkride, or passing professional 121 training, is just one standard of evaluation of one set of flying maneuvers. ATP standards just happen to be the set of maneuvers and standards the FAA feels are adequate for people to fly passengers around -- it is far from being some ultimate standard of all-around proficiency flying all types of aircraft under all sets of circumstances. There are many many other types of maneuvers and higher standards of precision to fly them to in the realm of all aviation, even if there's not an FAA checkride for them. Yes, Bob Hoover and I have both passed ATP checkrides, but does that mean that we are both equally good pilots? Hardly -- I'm lucky if I have 1/1000th of the airmanship and monkey skills of a guy like that.

Second, let's all remember that the purpose of pilots in a cockpit of a commercial aircraft -- especially one hauling people around -- is to handle things when stuff goes wrong. We know that things can go wrong in any multitude of ways, and although CRM skills are an aspect of being able to handle those emergencies (it's actually just a subset of individual airmanship, which is the real skill needed, but I'll give you that it is an important component), it is equally important to have the stick-and-rudder skills necessary to fly the airplane when parts of the airplane are missing, on fire, malfunctioning, etc. CRM certainly enabled Al Haynes and Denny Fitch to do what they did, but stick and rudder skills and plain ol' flying experience gave them the idea of steering the airplane with the throttles and the actual ability to execute that plan; there is an enormous difference between the actual skill and the enabler or facilitator for that skill.

By my measure, airmanship (ADM in the FAA vernacular) is the priceless commodity for an aviator, but it is followed very closely by, and extremely closely related to, stick and rudder skill. The two, while being different mutually exclusive skills, work hand-in-hand to make an aviator what he is. Skill in one is to some extent worthless without skill in the other. It is possible to be a CRM ace, but if you can't hand fly the airplane when the chips are down, then what good is it. By the same token, you can be the biggest set of golden hands ever to grace the skies, but if you don't have the airmanship and judgment (and, by derivative, CRM skills) to make smart decisions about how you operate your aircraft, then what good is that, too? Hence that funny little quote, "A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that would require the use of his superior skills."
 
I think you are taking the skills and knowledge needed for adequate execution of the job under normal circumstances (ergo, a 121 training program and/or an ATP checkride) and deriving two wholly false conclusions from that.

First off, yes, you are correct that for normal everyday operations, proficiency on an ATP checkride is sufficient to fly the line, and that no special stick and rudder skills are needed to babysit an FMS as it flies you through the National Airspace System and land the airplane safely after clicking off George.

That fact, however, is far from supporting your conclusions from that, that we're all equal in stick and rudder skills "assuming we don't wash out", or that stick-and-rudder is not a priceless for an aviator.

You make excellent points.

My comment was mainly addressing the idea z987k brought up way back in post #20 when he said he could fly a single engine approach, recover from a stall, etc. just as well, and probably better than a person with a CFI background, because he had spent his entire career to this point actually at the controls.

I've heard that argument from many pilots before (particularly freight pilots, in my experience) and it makes me shrug and think, "....So?" Those are basic skills pretty much every professional aviator can demonstrate. It's like being proud of being able to make really smooth crosswind landings. Ok, cool, it's a nice skill, but as long as the landing is safe (on centerline, in the touchdown zone, etc.) it doesn't *really* matter how smooth it is, in the sense of a pilot deserving a job or not. I have yet to meet an ATP-rated pilot who can't make a safe crosswind landing.

You're absolutely right about there being a difference between you, me, and Chuck Yeager. I'm not saying we can stick any monkey in the front seat of an airplane and call it good as long as said monkey has ADM/CRM skills. Nor am I saying pilots shouldn't strive to improve their stick and rudder skills. Thing is, how many jobs require the pilot to have Yeager-like skills? Particularly for day to day operations on the line? I'd say nearly every job requires solid ADM/CRM on a daily basis, whereas stick and rudder skills beyond ATP standards are only required under extraordinary circumstances.

To bring this back around to the original issue of working as a CFI or not, I believe working as a CFI develops ADM/CRM skills significantly, even more than stick and rudder skills, which is one of the best reasons to get the CFI ticket and use it.
 
My underlying point is the notion CFIing is the only way to build any/all of those skills is ridiculous. Even the notion that instructing WILL build them any better is just as ridiculous. Not everyone that doesn't instruct only drops meat missiles for 1500 hours, most have a large range of experience doing many things.
 
My underlying point is the notion CFIing is the only way to build any/all of those skills is ridiculous. Even the notion that instructing WILL build them any better is just as ridiculous. Not everyone that doesn't instruct only drops meat missiles for 1500 hours, most have a large range of experience doing many things.
fly ALL the things.
 
Ehhhhh... In theory it sounds good. But it's not entirely true. It's amazing what you learn from observation and flying with LOTS of other pilots of all skill levels. Anyone out there who has 1000+ dual and well rounded career as a CFI can back me up on this.

jrh Fly_Unity jhugz flyingbum mshunter


I've learned more as a CFI, than I did doing any other kind of flying I've ever done, and the only kind I haven't done is 121. Done SPIFR, flown things with turbines with and without props with and without crews, etc. The absolute most valuable time in my logbooks is my dual given column. You learn real quick that it's easy yonder early when things just aren't right. Watching someone else make the mistake in a more controlled environment actually gives you a chance to see it before you are reffing 135kts on short final down to 200/1800 with just enough time to react, and no time left to analyze.
 
But it didn't teach you how to not double post.

Show me the regulation where it says you have to be smart to be a pilot, and I'll hand my certificates over to the FAA in the morning. But every one else who isn't smart has to do it with me. If it were a requirement, there'd be no pilots left.
 
I've learned more as a CFI, than I did doing any other kind of flying I've ever done, and the only kind I haven't done is 121. Done SPIFR, flown things with turbines with and without props with and without crews, etc. The absolute most valuable time in my logbooks is my dual given column. You learn real quick that it's easy yonder early when things just aren't right. Watching someone else make the mistake in a more controlled environment actually gives you a chance to see it before you are reffing 135kts on short final down to 200/1800 with just enough time to react, and no time left to analyze.


Yup
 
Back
Top