Good/Bad Instructors

[KSCessnaDriver]

Look, I'm not going to sit here and tell people they should teach, because some of the worst instruction that I ever paid for was from instructors who were vary obvious about not wanting to teach. If you don't want to teach, but decide you need to, please don't make it obvious.

 

[jskibo]

Look, I'm not going to sit here and tell people they should teach, because some of the worst instruction that I ever paid for was from instructors who were vary obvious about not wanting to teach. If you don't want to teach, but decide you need to, please don't make it obvious.

What if you want to teach in blimps?

 

[nocturnalaviator]

What if you want to teach in blimps?

So student, how do we stay aloft? "With all due respect sir I'd say from all that hot air coming outta your mouth these past 45 minutes." I'm only guess'n that's how a convo could go blimpin dual.

Sent from my Android mobile device.

 

[jrh]

Look, I'm not going to sit here and tell people they should teach, because some of the worst instruction that I ever paid for was from instructors who were vary obvious about not wanting to teach. If you don't want to teach, but decide you need to, please don't make it obvious.

I agree...sort of.

I'd rather make it a package of advice: Teach, and learn to be good at it, too. The two aren't (or *shouldn't* be) separate concepts.

If a person decides to teach, but only does the minimum to get by, it's not going to be a good experience, nor will it benefit them much in the future. Gee....kinda sounds like what happens in any area of life when a person does the bare minimum to get by.

Life isn't easy. This career isn't easy. In my opinion, it's highly rewarding, and well worth doing, but easy, it's not. The sooner a new pilot learns this lesson, the better off they'll be.

Being captain for a major airline is cool and all, but if it were easy to get there, everyone would do it.

It doesn't matter what level of the industry a person is on. They need to not just do their job, but do it *well*.

If a person isn't willing to put in the effort to do well at every level of the industry...working line service, doing their own training, teaching, flying charters, working as a 121 FO, and so on....all I can say is, good luck. Maybe they should reevaluate why they got in and what they want to get out to begin with.

 

[Maurus]

If you don't want to instruct that is fine and dandy. The problem is that most jobs now required a minimum of 500TT. Pipeline is around 1000TT these days from what I recall. Traffic watch has died off a ton in the last few years as cameras have replaced the need for planes to do the job. The better aerial survey guys require 500TT or more. Something interesting is most of the places say "CFI preferred" meaning that makes you very competitive for the job. Just like most things in the industry, networking will take you a long way. Including the possibility of reduced minimums below 500TT

I personally think most people are scared of the checkride failures that could occur from a CFI ride as it will be the hardest checkride they would have taken to date. Also the fact that some FSDOs seem to think CFIs shouldn't pass their first attempt for some reason.

 

[jhugz]

But it's not the only way, and to sit there and say the way I did is the way everyone should because it's best is fallacious. You don't even have experience doing the many things a low time pilot can do to build hours.
At 2500 hours I still don't have my CFI, and I bet I can fly my airplane on one engine to mins just as well as you can. I can recognize and recover from a stall just as well, and a whole bunch of other things. Probably better than some since I have actually flown my airplane for all those hours.

I probably will never get it until I'm of retirement age or I see value in it between then and now.
If someone doesn't want to instruct, and can find a job then that's a valid path. If they can't, then to be honest, they don't want it enough and should go instruct.

You've been very lucky so far with your career path, just recognize it. It worked for you, but I stand by it. Not to take away from your hard work by any means, it's a harder less traveled path with a lot of gambles.

 

[z987k]

You've been very lucky so far with your career path, just recognize it. It worked for you, but I stand by it. Not to take away from your hard work by any means, it's a harder less traveled path with a lot of gambles.

I really don't think of it as luck when I look back at the amount of time I invested in research, networking, door knocking and traveling I did to get each job I've had thus far.
It did work for me, and I don't think there's any reason it can't work for someone else if they put forth as much effort.
The only thing about instructing is the number of jobs available is probably higher than all the non-CFI jobs combined.(for low time pilots) So, by sheer numbers it's going to be easier to get a job, but it's not true that a person that has CFI'd can do what I do better because they instructed.

 

[Hacker15e]

I had no desire to instruct, but the USAF decided it was time and assigned me to be one. That's the tough beauty of a military flying career -- you rarely get a chance to sit back and enjoy where you are, because you are always needed to upgrade to the next higher level of qualification. Just like with other things in life that you're never 'ready' for (marriage, kids, etc), the USAF decided to make me instruct far before I felt I had the skills and experience to do it (700-ish fighter hours and 1200 total hours including civ time).

I hated the instructor training process: it was intimidating and difficult, and I had to work harder than probably at any other point in my flying career. I'd have rather been doing the 'easy' job of flying fighters in the operational world.

At first, teaching was a pain: I didn't know what I was doing, so I questioned my own abilities and was worried that I was teaching the wrong thing.

I was mad that instead of flying out in the 'real world', I was stuck training people to do what I wanted to be doing.

Then....something happened. I gradually figured out how to instruct. I gradually realized that I really enjoyed seeing students go from unable to do the tasks in my course to able. It was only 3 years later, when I went back into an operational fighter assignment, that I realized what I had learned during that time teaching others. The improvement to my personal airmanship was immeasurable.

So, I thoroughly agree with the OP. You probably don't think you'll like it or be good at it, but you won't know until you try it. More importantly, it will make you a much better aviator, and that is the ultimate goal of all types of flying experience.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

I agree. I never had the problem of not wanting to instruct. Up until the end when I was craving a better paying job, yes I made more as a 1st year FO at CommutAir than I did instructing, I loved every minute of it. I instructed for almost 3 years before going to a regional, in that time I became a much better pilot and person for that matter. You will learn things about aviation you had overlooked or forgotten from your time as a student pilot. You also learn how to deal with many different types of people, which is a huge asset when you get to an airline or a corporate job, because guess what, you are going to be dealing with groups of people for the rest of your life. Hell, the people skills you learn will probably even help you own that interview to get a job after instructing.

Lastly, captains can tell a huge difference in skill level between guys with CFI experience and those with out, doesn't really matter how many hours you have. So do all of your future coworkers a favor, and yourself for when you get to the left seat since KARMA is real, suck it up and instruct. It may just be one of the best times in your aviation career.

Aviation careers aside, I have met a number of good friends through instructing. A few will stay life long friends. Its hard not to get close to someone or learn a lot about them when you spend 50+ hours in a confined space with them.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

You've been very lucky so far with your career path, just recognize it. It worked for you, but I stand by it. Not to take away from your hard work by any means, it's a harder less traveled path with a lot of gambles.

My career is (and continues to be) pure dumb luck. Incidentally, also going back to CFI school soon.

 

[mastermags]

Instructing is the best experience and time builder for low time pilots, but it certainly isn't for everybody. If someone truly wants to find another way to build time, then by all means go for it! I think most folks come to learn the value of a brand new commercial pilot is about zilch, though.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Look, I'm not going to sit here and tell people they should teach, because some of the worst instruction that I ever paid for was from instructors who were vary obvious about not wanting to teach. If you don't want to teach, but decide you need to, please don't make it obvious.

See, that's where work ethic is involved. When someone is bad at something simply because they don't want to do it, it says a lot about their character.

Instructing makes you a more knowledgable pilot. Bottom line. I'm not saying its the only way to become one, but it works and works well.

Great thread though Huggies, I agree completely.

 

[rwgb1984]

As the OP of a thread that went on for 5 pages on this very subject, I would just like to point out that for some people (like myself who have been slowly plugging away at CSEL for the last two years) the thought of spending $3K-$4K for a CFI is where some of the hesitation comes in. At least for myself anyway. I am perfectly aware of the fact that there is no better way to build airmanship, time, etc... than instructing.

My point being that before we start posting threads flaming people who don't want to instruct for various reasons, lets remember that:

1. If someone feels like they won't be a good instructor, this feeling is valid and should be considered. I would hate to be the student of an instructor who lacks confidence in their ability to impart information that I spend $150.00+/hr to bumble around the practice area and not learn anything. Conversely, the instructor who is such a hot shot and it only "building time to make it to the majors" without so much of an iota of professionalism, care or concern in me, his current student presently occupying the right seat with him would also frustrate me incredibly. TL;DR: If I wanted to pay $150/hr to be frustrated and not learn anything I probably shouldn't be at the controls of an airplane.

2. If someone doesn't want to instruct, this is a valid feeling. You don't know why they don't want to instruct, just that they don't flaming an individual for a choice/opinion they hold without all the information doesn't make you better than them. In fact, my assumption would be (if we're judging books by their cover) is that you (and I mean generally, not referring to anyone specifically.) very well may be the kind of person who hops into an airplane without any level of fore thought because, "it's all good, I got this."

3. Instructing is a corner stone in our industry in terms of developing airmanship. However, it's not the only way. If you can get there without instructing, more power to ya.

/rant.

 

[jrh]

How would this forum respond to a person who asks something along the lines of:

"I hear the airlines want turbine time. I'm not willing to fly anything other than turbine-powered aircraft, because I don't want to waste my time learning about piston engines I'm never going to fly in the real world."

We'd all look at each other and wonder, "Is this a troll?" The response would probably be something along the lines of, "Dude, step back, you just don't get it." It's nonsensical. Ok, sure, this scenario is possible by either throwing a lot of money at the problem or going down some highly selective military training paths, but realistically, neither is a good way for most people to establish a career.

This is how I feel when people post questions asking how to avoid CFIing. It's simply not the way the civilian world works. You can go on and on and on about...

How you'll be just as good of a pilot without teaching (or so you think)
How CFIing is a waste of time banging around the pattern on VFR days (or so you think)
How you won't make a good teacher (or so you think)
How long it will take to build time (or so you think)
How you can't afford it (or so you think)

But at the end of the day, y0u need to figure out a way to go from student pilot to 747 captain and chances are, life will be a lot easier if you look at CFIing as part of the natural progression of one's civilian career, rather than something to be avoided. Treat it like any other prerequisite to this career, go get it, and learn to be good at it.

Personally, I had a difficult time during my instrument training. But I didn't run away and say, "How can I avoid the instrument rating?" I said, "Ok, this kinda sucks, but it's the cornerstone of professional flying and my options are severely limited without an instrument ticket, so I better figure out how to do it, and do it well." Look at me now, banging around in the weather single pilot at an airline...

So as I've said before...do whatever you wanna do. If you don't want to become a CFI, fine, but don't expect me to encourage a person to skip it any more than I'd encourage them to skip their instrument or multi-engine ratings.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

As the OP of a thread that went on for 5 pages on this very subject, I would just like to point out that for some people (like myself who have been slowly plugging away at CSEL for the last two years) the thought of spending $3K-$4K for a CFI is where some of the hesitation comes in. At least for myself anyway. I am perfectly aware of the fact that there is no better way to build airmanship, time, etc... than instructing.

My point being that before we start posting threads flaming people who don't want to instruct for various reasons, lets remember that:

1. If someone feels like they won't be a good instructor, this feeling is valid and should be considered. I would hate to be the student of an instructor who lacks confidence in their ability to impart information that I spend $150.00+/hr to bumble around the practice area and not learn anything. Conversely, the instructor who is such a hot shot and it only "building time to make it to the majors" without so much of an iota of professionalism, care or concern in me, his current student presently occupying the right seat with him would also frustrate me incredibly. TL;DR: If I wanted to pay $150/hr to be frustrated and not learn anything I probably shouldn't be at the controls of an airplane.

2. If someone doesn't want to instruct, this is a valid feeling. You don't know why they don't want to instruct, just that they don't flaming an individual for a choice/opinion they hold without all the information doesn't make you better than them. In fact, my assumption would be (if we're judging books by their cover) is that you (and I mean generally, not referring to anyone specifically.) very well may be the kind of person who hops into an airplane without any level of fore thought because, "it's all good, I got this."

3. Instructing is a corner stone in our industry in terms of developing airmanship. However, it's not the only way. If you can get there without instructing, more power to ya.

/rant.

I understand being hesitant to drop the extra money on a CFI, but you really should view it as an investment. There simply aren't as many non CFI jobs out there for new pilots. Getting your CFI will, in most cases, take you from paying to fly, to getting paid to fly the quickest.

The rest of your post sounds like excuses to me.

Instructing doesn't require a superhuman skill. All you need to be a good instructor is a solid foundation, a good attitude, and an honest desire to help people learn. These are skills acquired simply by hitting the books and having basic people skills. I border on being a severe introvert and I enjoyed instructing and was actually pretty good at it.

As for not wanting to instruct. I didn't want to either when I started. But I was told it was the best and quickest path to where I wanted to be. People talk about avoiding instructing being a "short cut" but with the new ATP rule for regional F/Os, I would argue that instructing now is the shortcut.

As popular as it is to rag on the learn to fly---->instruct---->regional route, it has worked for a lot of people. People who try to get creative with non instructing or regional jobs seem to move around a ton, work for different companies, and face a lot of uncertainty. Instructing and flying RJs certainly has its pitfalls, but at least for me it has been fairly stable.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

If you would like to save yourself some reading, read my post as "what JRH said"

 

[jhugz]

On the iPhone, so this will be short. The 5 ish G's I spent on my three CFI ratings was the best money I've ever spent in aviation.

 

[jrh]

I would just like to point out that for some people (like myself who have been slowly plugging away at CSEL for the last two years) the thought of spending $3K-$4K for a CFI is where some of the hesitation comes in. At least for myself anyway. I am perfectly aware of the fact that there is no better way to build airmanship, time, etc... than instructing.

Just curious, how much have you invested in your flight training to this point? Maybe $30k? $40k?

And you're not willing to invest another 10% to obtain something you know is one of the best possible ways to build airmanship and flight time? Frankly, it sounds like stepping over dollars to pick up dimes.

I'm not saying $3-4k isn't a significant amount of money. But a person needs to keep the big picture in perspective and understand what they're getting for their money. From a financial perspective, I'd argue a fresh CFI ticket is FAR more valuable, monetarily, than a fresh commercial ticket.

 

[rwgb1984]

Just curious, how much have you invested in your flight training to this point? Maybe $30k? $40k?

And you're not willing to invest another 10% to obtain something you know is one of the best possible ways to build airmanship and flight time? Frankly, it sounds like stepping over dollars to pick up dimes.

I'm not saying $3-4k isn't a significant amount of money. But a person needs to keep the big picture in perspective and understand what they're getting for their money. From a financial perspective, I'd argue a fresh CFI ticket is FAR more valuable, monetarily, than a fresh commercial ticket.

I should possibly clarify my comments: while I have invested a great deal into my training, the comment about the additional expense stems from where I am financially at this moment. Is it small compared to my total investment? Yes. But when I started flying I didn't feel the pinch quite as much. I do now because my circumstances have obviously changed.

Having said that, hopefully that will provide some context for what I say next: my point is that regardless of what the reasoning is, flaming people who don't want to instruct, for whatever reason, doesn't help encourage people to potentially change their mind and decide that the benefit of having a CFI out weighs the cost.

So when I said that an individual who doesn't want to instruct because they don't have a lot of confidence in their skill I meant that because YOU (or anyone for that matter) disagree it doesn't make their feeling invalid. Their feelings may be misplaced or their reasoning flawed, but the fact is that is how they feel.

Now, I did not say those "excuses" were reasonings I was using. In fact, in my post about Instructing I even said that while I was hoping to not spend the money I do realize that even part time instructing will be valuable in the future. My conclusion came as a result of considering the pros and cons others presented and deciding for myself.

If I had been flamed in my post I would have sooner told everyone to GTFO and stopped visiting JC. (I'm being sarcastic)!

 

[jhugz]

So when I said that an individual who doesn't want to instruct because they don't have a lot of confidence in their skill I meant that because YOU (or anyone for that matter) disagree it doesn't make their feeling invalid. Their feelings may be misplaced or their reasoning flawed, but the fact is that is how they feel.

Right and I'm telling you as someone who has been there, done that, and had the same feelings they're wrong.

Number one, it is very difficult to go from the 250TT mark to the 500TT to qualify for the aerial mapping, banner towing, jump jobs. You're better off taking some time off from flying, work strictly on ground for six months, with a couple part time jobs to save for the CFI.

z987k - also I again wanted to make it clear to you that your hard work, dedication, and professionalism is a major reason why you are where you are. I've also been very lucky in this career so far, however the point I was trying to make, and I really didn't do a good job with it, is the 300 hr non-cfi job is very, very hard to find. (run-on sentence holla!) It's much easier to find the 300 hr CFI job. That was the point I was trying to make.