GoJet Interview Questions

[ORDinary]

I admit that accepting a job for lower pay can indeed lower pay for the rest of that industry. What I don't agree with, is the assumption that they creates enough "down pressure" to justify this crusade you all seem to have against these airlines. If there are other factors that cause pay cuts, then why not rail against those? Why should GoJet or Virgin employees bare the full blunt? I mean, for such strong feeling to exist here, there must be mounds of evidence to support this claim, but where is the evidence?

If I owned a 1964 Chevy, which is worth $12,000, and I sell it for $2,000, I'm lowering the overall price, aren't I? Am I lowering the price enough to justify every single other '64 Chevy owner to shun me every chance they get for making them lose money?

So you admit that "accepting a job for lower pay can indeed lower pay for the rest of the industry." It's nice to see you come around. As far as the other factors, they are "railed against," they just aren't the result of the selfish choices of other pilots-- we rail against fuel prices, terrorist attacks, and airline mismanagement all we could ever want, but there isn't much we can do about those. You bring up a good point though: with all of the factors working against the careers of pilots today that we cannot control, we should stick together more than ever, instead of working against each other (in ways that we can control, such as choosing which airline to work for) at such a crucial time.

Your Chevy analogy doesn't work for me. The disappointment and disruption of the lives of thousands of pilots and their families has very little to do with the price of old cars, and the market for old cars is dissimilar in almost every way to the negotiations between uber-rich airline executives and pilots. Nice try.

 

[butt]

So you admit that "accepting a job for lower pay can indeed lower pay for the rest of the industry." It's nice to see you come around.

I've always believed that. I just never have (and still don't) believe it's enough to justify this war you all have going.

As far as the other factors, they are "railed against," they just aren't the result of the selfish choices of other pilots-- we rail against fuel prices, terrorist attacks, and airline mismanagement all we could ever want, but there isn't much we can do about those.

Which do you think plays the biggest role in causing low wages; fuel prices, terrorism, mismanagement, economic recession, or pilots working for GoJets?

You bring up a good point though: with all of the factors working against the careers of pilots today that we cannot control, we should stick together more than ever, instead of working against each other (in ways that we can control, such as choosing which airline to work for) at such a crucial time.

If every "proto-scab" airline were to instantly disappear, would that change anything? Will the pay magically coma back? What if those airlines would have never existed in the first place?

Your Chevy analogy doesn't work for me. The disappointment and disruption of the lives of thousands of pilots and their families has very little to do with the price of old cars, and the market for old cars is dissimilar in almost every way to the negotiations between uber-rich airline executives and pilots. Nice try.

The point I was trying to make was that it's unfair to blame one's shortcomings on the actions of someone else, when that someone else's actions have very little actual, measurable effect on the overall outcome. "Disappointment and disruption of the lives of thousands of pilots and their families" does not change that fact.

 

[ORDinary]

I've always believed that. I just never have (and still don't) believe it's enough to justify this war you all have going.

So you still don't believe that some pilots actively contributing to management's multimillion-dollar bonuses while other pilots' families have to move out of their homes, take on debt, and worse is enough to justify taking a stand? I suppose you are part of the problem as well.

Which do you think plays the biggest role in causing low wages; fuel prices, terrorism, mismanagement, economic recession, or pilots working for GoJets?

The biggest factor? Who knows and who cares? The only one that a pilot can help with? That's easy: not working for GoJets.

If every "proto-scab" airline were to instantly disappear, would that change anything? Will the pay magically coma back? What if those airlines would have never existed in the first place?

I don't know what would happen if airlines instantly disappeared. That scenario isn't realistic and has nothing to do with this conversation (except to you, for some reason). However, if GoJets, SkyBus, JetBlue, and others like them couldn't find enough pilots to fly for them, then what would they do? Well, they would have to up the ante, make better work rules, offer more pay. And if they offered more pay, then when negotiations rolled around at various other airlines, and management goes digging for ways to undercut their pilot group, they won't be able to point at low "industry averages" as justification for their lowballing. In fact, they won't really be able to lowball at all.

The point I was trying to make was that it's unfair to blame one's shortcomings on the actions of someone else, when that someone else's actions have very little actual, measurable effect on the overall outcome. "Disappointment and disruption of the lives of thousands of pilots and their families" does not change that fact.

Shortcomings? What is that supposed to imply? Actual and measurable effect? How about actual common sense and logic? And once again, go read Flying the Line, and a few more labor history books. This is history repeating itself, once again. I don't know what "fact" you are referring to in your last line. You have no facts in any of your posts.

 

[butt]

So you still don't believe that some pilots actively contributing to management's multimillion-dollar bonuses while other pilots' families have to move out of their homes, take on debt, and worse is enough to justify taking a stand? I suppose you are part of the problem as well.

It has not been proven that GoJet, Virgin, or jetBlue pilots play any major role in any of that. And no, saying "it's common sense" doesn't prove anything because it's not common sense.

To me, common sense is the employees of a handful of airlines not greatly affecting the inductry as a whole by the fact that they make less. If that were the case, then just about every single flight school would pay minimum wage due to the fact that there are a couple flight schools in existence that "prove that instructors will work for minimum wage".

Anyways, high level CEO's in any other industry make multi-million dollar salaries while workers make considerably less. How should the airline industry be any different?

The biggest factor? Who knows and who cares? The only one that a pilot can help with? That's easy: not working for GoJets.

OK, then recommend people not work for them and have it stop there. You can have whatever opinion you want about these airlines, just don't spread lies and act like an unprofessional moron (not directed specifically at you).

I don't know what would happen if airlines instantly disappeared. That scenario isn't realistic and has nothing to do with this conversation (except to you, for some reason). However, if GoJets, SkyBus, JetBlue, and others like them couldn't find enough pilots to fly for them, then what would they do? Well, they would have to up the ante, make better work rules, offer more pay.

Obviously, you and everyone else really dislikes these companies. Do you not want them to go away? What do you hope to achieve with this crusade you all have going?

And if they offered more pay, then when negotiations rolled around at various other airlines, and management goes digging for ways to undercut their pilot group, they won't be able to point at low "industry averages" as justification for their lowballing. In fact, they won't really be able to lowball at all.

What makes you so sure of that?

Shortcomings? What is that supposed to imply? Actual and measurable effect? How about actual common sense and logic? And once again, go read Flying the Line, and a few more labor history books. This is history repeating itself, once again. I don't know what "fact" you are referring to in your last line. You have no facts in any of your posts.

If I were to lose a lot of money in the stock market, it would be wrong of me to blame it all on day traders for "saturating the market", or whatever.

If I were to get fired from my job as a computer programmer, it would be wrong of me to blame it all on George Bush for "making it easier to outsource American jobs overseas" (someone actually tried to use this once)

If I were to suffer a pay cut, it would be wrong for me to put any more than a little bit of blame on those who took lower paying jobs and "drove down the wage". If this "driving down the wage" thing is so significant, then wouldn't we see it in other industries?

There is absolutly no evidence to believe GoJet pilots bring down pay in any significant degree as to deserve the amount of loathing they receive from most of the people on this forum.

 

[greaper007]

Here's my "stay away from" list:

1. Velocipede

I don't know, Velocipede seemed like a jerk when he first started showing up but he's seemed to soften up a little lately. He only attacks the non-union carriers now and doesn't seem to give the regional guys a hard time anymore.

 

[ppragman]

All I'm sayin is why don't people in the 135 world need Unions? I know there are some out there that are organized but that is few and far between.

If the 135 world had unions, then the pay would be better than 28k a year to fly single pilot in inclement wx. I would get paid for my reserve days, and would recieve pay for the additional 4-5 hours I spend at work in addition to 8 hrs of flying. Don't get me wrong, I love my new job, but if there was a union, the extra money I would pay in union dues would be more tha returned to me in benefits and regulations on the working conditions.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Which do you think plays the biggest role in causing low wages; fuel prices, terrorism, mismanagement, economic recession, or pilots working for GoJets?

Mismanagement, terrorism, and economic recession were the catalysts for concessions, but the wages of substandard non-union contracts dictated how deep that management would demand the concessions to be. The JetBlue payrates became a target figure for airline managements, and bankruptcy judges were more than happy to agree. If those non-union wages never existed in the first place, then concessions wouldn't have been anywhere near as deep.

What if those airlines would have never existed in the first place?

Then the paycuts probably would have been along the lines of 15-20% instead of 40-50%.

The point I was trying to make was that it's unfair to blame one's shortcomings on the actions of someone else, when that someone else's actions have very little actual, measurable effect on the overall outcome. "Disappointment and disruption of the lives of thousands of pilots and their families" does not change that fact.

You have yet to prove that these non-union carriers have only a "very little actual, measurable effect" on the outcome. Everyone here that has years of experience in this industry recognizes that this has a huge effect on our profession, so if you disagree, then you need to provide some evidence to support your position. The rest of us already know better because we've seen how it works. You'll eventually figure it out.

 

[Seggy]

I wouldn't worry to much about what 'butt' has to say. In another post he said...

"At my home airport, it sometimes gets very busy. There can be 5 or 6 planes in the pattern, as well as 3 or 4 more planes inbound. At times like this, you just can't even afford to waste 3 seconds to call up "Tower, am I cleared to land?" if you're on short final without specefically hearing "N12345 you are cleared to land". If the tower controller sequenced you to with the rest of the traffic, you can reasonally assume you've been cleared. I've landed a bunch of times without a specific clearance. It was reasonable for me to assume I was cleared. "Reasonable" of course being the key word."

Scary that someone assumes when they are cleared to land. Much like he assumes ALPA is bad for pilots.

 

[WalterSobchak]

If the 135 world had unions, then the pay would be better than 28k a year to fly single pilot in inclement wx. I would get paid for my reserve days, and would recieve pay for the additional 4-5 hours I spend at work in addition to 8 hrs of flying. Don't get me wrong, I love my new job, but if there was a union, the extra money I would pay in union dues would be more tha returned to me in benefits and regulations on the working conditions.

Come to WI or MN my old company is hiring. $40-50 year, option of 401k, and benifits.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Thanks for finding that, Seggy. That puts all of his other posts in perspective.

 

[derg]

Come to WI or MN my old company is hiring. $40-50 year, option of 401k, and benifits.

I presume you meant, "K" or have wages literally gotten that low?

 

[FlySmiley]

Which do you think plays the biggest role in causing low wages; fuel prices, terrorism, mismanagement, economic recession, or pilots working for GoJets?

How about the mismanagement of pilots working for GoJets during an economic recession fueled by terrorism and rising fuel prices?


It's not necessarily about what the most significant cause is, but we can't do much about fuel prices, terrorism, or the economic recession (politics aside). What we can change is where we work, or what we put up with while at work. That's the whole point.

 

[Gonzo]

Mismanagement, terrorism, and economic recession were the catalysts for concessions, but the wages of substandard non-union contracts dictated how deep that management would demand the concessions to be. The JetBlue payrates became a target figure for airline managements, and bankruptcy judges were more than happy to agree. If those non-union wages never existed in the first place, then concessions wouldn't have been anywhere near as deep.

Without mismanagement there is no paycuts. Do not let the idiots off the hook.

Then the paycuts probably would have been along the lines of 15-20% instead of 40-50%.

The paycuts would have been 40-50% without jetblue because they would have used Airtran Payrates.:crazy:


At the end of the day all pilots need help to stop management from setting work rules or payrates at the stoke of a pen.

 

[DE727UPS]

Again, I think SWA has a lot more to do with the "lowering of the bar" in industry expectations than Jetblue. I've been around long enough to see the SWA effect on fares. Problem is, they are union, and thus forgiven by the local hard liners.

 

[butt]

Mismanagement, terrorism, and economic recession were the catalysts for concessions, but the wages of substandard non-union contracts dictated how deep that management would demand the concessions to be. The JetBlue payrates became a target figure for airline managements, and bankruptcy judges were more than happy to agree. If those non-union wages never existed in the first place, then concessions wouldn't have been anywhere near as deep.

I still don't see how this can be pinned on it's employees as being their fault.

Someone takes a job that pays less than industry standard. So what if thats their prerogative? How were they supposed to know it would play a role in other people's rates in the future? Even so, why should they care? Do you expect them to quit their job or something because their low wages start creeping into other companies' pay rates?

You have yet to prove that these non-union carriers have only a "very little actual, measurable effect" on the outcome. Everyone here that has years of experience in this industry recognizes that this has a huge effect on our profession, so if you disagree, then you need to provide some evidence to support your position. The rest of us already know better because we've seen how it works. You'll eventually figure it out.

The only reason I'm "siding" with jetBlue is because I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, considering just about every single person on the earth seem to hate their pilot's guts. I'm not going to extend those kinds of strong feelings until I'm 110% sure they are warranted.

 

[DE727UPS]

"considering just about every single person on the earth seem to hate their pilot's guts"

I don't. And trust me, nor doesn't my pilot group. I see them jumpseat with us all the time. Though, I have to say, the blue shirts are kinda ugly.

 

[Hacker15e]

Again, I think SWA has a lot more to do with the "lowering of the bar" in industry expectations than Jetblue. I've been around long enough to see the SWA effect on fares. Problem is, they are union, and thus forgiven by the local hard liners.

Very good point.

THAT is the one fact that has been "erased" by the post-9/11 generation of new airline pilots.

 

[derg]

True that. Lots of folks tend to think that their pay rates jumped far above everyone elses. They were actually able to raise their rates based upon pre-existing rates, but never had to endure the paycuts that a lot of other airlines had to. They had low rates 9/10/2001 but never were pressured to reduce them when the rest of us had our asses handed to us and failed.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I still don't see how this can be pinned on it's employees as being their fault.

Because the company couldn't exist and pay these low rates if it wasn't for the pilots accepting employment. We can't control the other factors, but we can control what jobs we take.

SHow were they supposed to know it would play a role in other people's rates in the future?

Because anyone who's been in this industry for more than a year or two understands how these things work. Everyone at JetBlue has been in the industry long enough to build jet PIC time. They should know better than to take a non-union job and undercut the rest of us.

Even so, why should they care?

That's just a horrible attitude. It demonstrates that you have a SCAB mentality if you think it's perfectly ok to stab your fellow pilots in the back.

Do you expect them to quit their job or something because their low wages start creeping into other companies' pay rates?

No, I expected them not to take the jobs in the first place. Since that didn't happen, then I expect them to unionize and join the rest of us in the fight to better this profession. Until then, they're nothing but pseudo-scabs.

The only reason I'm "siding" with jetBlue is because I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, considering just about every single person on the earth seem to hate their pilot's guts. I'm not going to extend those kinds of strong feelings until I'm 110% sure they are warranted.

None of us "hate their guts." We simply accept the reality that they're twisting a knife in our backs and we choose not to thank them for it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Again, I think SWA has a lot more to do with the "lowering of the bar" in industry expectations than Jetblue. I've been around long enough to see the SWA effect on fares. Problem is, they are union, and thus forgiven by the local hard liners.

The fact that they have a union changes everything. That means that they're involved in fighting to improve this profession. They have lobbyists in DC fighting for pilots' issues, they have a collective bargaining process to improve pay and working conditions to "jack up the house," and they aren't subject to pilot pushing from management. The contract that they are currently negotiating will help the rest of us negotiate better contracts. There's no comparison here to places like SkyBus and VA.