GoJet Airlines
- Thread starter Airdale
- Start date
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
Still no "reason" from you. I'm waiting.....still waiting......I have a feeling this will be awhile.
The issue has nothing to do with "contracts" between TSA, RAH, and AMR.
It has everything to do with the contract between the APA and AA, of which there is ONE. They don't make seperate rules for each regional. APA sets forth scope and all AA connection carriers play by the same rules (republic and trans states). You are showing a fundamental lack of understanding in the way scope clauses work. The GoJet operating certificate was created to circumvent the APA's scope clause, however:
The GoJet pilot group was created to circumvent the collective bargaining process at TSA, it's a fact.
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
We all have been waiting for one from him.
Hopefully he gets scoped out of the 4 seater.:laff:
WalterSobchak
Well-Known Member
Might as well keep this in bold make it the last post and close the thread. That way aloft can stay out of the hole he has dug. Maybe some day he can be lucky enought to work for GoJet.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Not at all. This is about the GoJet operation being in direct violation of the TSA scope clause. Flying 70-seaters for 50-seat rates is certainly a problem, but that's not what the controversy over GoJet is about. The very existence of GoJet is a violation of the TSA scope clause. From the TSA contract:
The Company shall not create or acquire an alter ego to avoid the terms and conditions of the Agreement.
I think this needs repeating.
This thread is a nanometer from being closed, can the personal affronts. Now.
Tram
Well-Known Member
What needs to be done to make it get closed?
Let me know.. I'll do it twice...
This thread is going no where and it's going there verrrrrrrrrry quickly...
Well, it's not that we "don't want to talk about it". Personally I think discussion about subjects like this is important. But, when people start throwing out personal insults & namecalling informational value is lost is lost in the quagmire.
Though I will admit I think the discussion here has covered about everything that could possibly be covered........ not sure how much more there could be.
Though I will admit I think the discussion here has covered about everything that could possibly be covered........ not sure how much more there could be.
Tram
Well-Known Member
I totally agree.. You've got a guy "looking for answers" and someone who "wants to know if there are any TSA pilots that can verify any of this" and then a TSA pilot actually takes the time to post to this drivel and he's instantly called a moron...
This person is no longer looking for "answers." He's looking for a fight...
Yep.. It's been one of the most indepth GoJets threads I've seen..
So.. Can we close it?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Personally, I think anybody gutsy enough (crazy?) enough to work at GoJets either really, really believes in GoJets or just doesn't care, either way. A lack of interest comes from.. who knows.
Either way, intentionally working for GoJets when everyday I see flightbag stickers with anti-GoJets slogans seems a little... risky.
Who'd really want to work for a place that, one way or the other, has earned the ire of so much of the professional pilot community?
Whether it's earned or not, taking on that kind of reputation for your own just seems a bit foolish. Why risk being perceived as someone that spits in the eye of the greater majority? Why run that risk especially considering that the greater majority may review your resume for that big job you always wanted, someday?
Everybody's got an opinion about any given carrier out there. As it goes, however, it would seem that few have such a tarnished reputation right from the outset. I'd definitely take THAT to heart before I threw my hat into that ring.
Either way, intentionally working for GoJets when everyday I see flightbag stickers with anti-GoJets slogans seems a little... risky.
Who'd really want to work for a place that, one way or the other, has earned the ire of so much of the professional pilot community?
Whether it's earned or not, taking on that kind of reputation for your own just seems a bit foolish. Why risk being perceived as someone that spits in the eye of the greater majority? Why run that risk especially considering that the greater majority may review your resume for that big job you always wanted, someday?
Everybody's got an opinion about any given carrier out there. As it goes, however, it would seem that few have such a tarnished reputation right from the outset. I'd definitely take THAT to heart before I threw my hat into that ring.
Tram
Well-Known Member
It's not about it being risky, it's about why it's risky - that is what aloft is claiming to want to know..
He's been told straight out many times... He then gets personal with the "name calling."
Sounds like a guy who really wants answers doesn't it?
I think he proved how much he wanted answers when he called JetsGoWhee a moron for giving him a TSA pilots POV...
I'm wondering, <mod edited.....maybe, but it could end up with a little vacation for Tram....>, would this thread go away?
*mods please take it easy on me, I'm just ready to see this one close..
tonyw
Well-Known Member
As someone who doesn't have a dog in this hunt, here's an observation.
You've got someone who's not liking the answer he's been given for whatever reason.
And that makes me wonder...why ask the question if you've already made up your mind about the answer?
Hey, I'm just a lowly salesman, but one of the ways I get the information I need to make a sale is to ask questions. And I have to be prepared for the answer to those questions, even if it means I won't be making a sale.
I can tell you something, though. If I were interested in a career in the airline business, just the level of vitriol directed towards GoJets would make me very leery of accepting an offer from them.
Things change. Maybe I'd need to leave them someday, and to know that I'd have a really hard time getting a job somewhere else would make me question the benefit of getting a paycheck from them.
If the mere act of working for someone burns bridges I may need to cross, then I'm not working for them -- REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE ANGER IS JUSTIFIED OR NOT!
You've got someone who's not liking the answer he's been given for whatever reason.
And that makes me wonder...why ask the question if you've already made up your mind about the answer?
Hey, I'm just a lowly salesman, but one of the ways I get the information I need to make a sale is to ask questions. And I have to be prepared for the answer to those questions, even if it means I won't be making a sale.
I can tell you something, though. If I were interested in a career in the airline business, just the level of vitriol directed towards GoJets would make me very leery of accepting an offer from them.
Things change. Maybe I'd need to leave them someday, and to know that I'd have a really hard time getting a job somewhere else would make me question the benefit of getting a paycheck from them.
If the mere act of working for someone burns bridges I may need to cross, then I'm not working for them -- REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE ANGER IS JUSTIFIED OR NOT!
Tram
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering, <mod edited.....maybe, but it could end up with a little vacation for Tram....>, would this thread go away?
Hey, you can't fault a guy for tryin'..
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
'Zactly my point. High five, mang.
Wow. A few days with limited internet access, seven pages later and I've literally spent more time digging thru reported posts, moderation events and trying to get at the core of the issue than I've spent on the toilet the last few days.
OK!
I'm not closing the thread, I'm going to "time it out" for a bit so I don't spend the next six hours answering PM's, texts and emails about who did/said/posted/threatened/whatever who.
It'll be back. Be patient.
OK!
I'm not closing the thread, I'm going to "time it out" for a bit so I don't spend the next six hours answering PM's, texts and emails about who did/said/posted/threatened/whatever who.
It'll be back. Be patient.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
It's back you poopoo heads!1111 
aloft
New Member
No, I'm looking for a debate on the issues, and the truth, and whether I've gotten it--or anyone here has it--is debatable. What I have gotten--in spades--is a lot of non sequiturs, logical fallacies, opinion and beliefs. And I'm smart enough to not base opinion on assertions with such weaknesses.
And simply because someone flies for TSA doesn't mean they're in a position to have valid knowledge of the events in question. Sure, they can cite the party line verbatim, but I'm not interested in that.
Many of you have offered your opinion on the subject and a few of you have offered your reasoning behind your opinion, but nobody's been willing to allow their opinion or reasoning to be critically examined point by point without getting offended and resorting to ad hominem attacks--which is generally an implied acknowledgement that a position is tenuous at best.
Notwithstanding the fact that I've already shown that GoJet is not, in fact, flying 70 seat jets for 50 seat rates....
Whether GoJet was created to circumvent TSA's contract with its pilot group (certainly plausible) or its contract with AMR (also plausible), is debatable.
Contract statements like that quoted in PCL's post are written in legalese, which is always highly specific in construct. With this in mind, what we have above is a two-part statement, whereby "creation or acquisition of an alter-ego" is qualified by the second phrase, "to avoid the terms and conditions of the agreement". In other words, creation or acquisition of an alter ego is only prohibited when the express purpose for doing so is to avoid the terms and conditions of the agreement with its pilot union. In a court of law, all TSA's management would need to show is any other plausible purpose for creating the alter ego, and clearly, the AMR scope issue provides this.
In any case, the burden of proof would be on the TSA pilots to prove that TSA management's purpose in creating GoJet was solely and exclusively to evade the terms of the labor agreement. If any other valid justification exists--and one clearly does--that restrictive language simply doesn't apply. And even if it did, where is the contract language that states if TSA management DOES create an alter ego carrier, they're required to offer right of first refusal to the TSA pilots?
Which brings us to another question: why didn't the TSA pilots sue for breach of contract? And if they did, why didn't they prevail?
Again, for emphasis: I don't care what any of you believe on the matter. I don't care how fervently you believe it. I'm only interested in WHY you believe it. And if you can't articulate this or are unwilling to allow detailed critical analysis of your reasoning, please don't bother responding.