Get there as fast as you can or enjoy the ride (and risk ending up behind the curve)?

Seniority means EVERYTHING in the airline biz. The sooner you get it the better life will be for you. You won't understand that until you have to live with a number that will control every aspect of your career. Bottom line, get one as soon as you can!

I'm in the opposite situation. My airline career is in it's last few years and my retirement is relatively secure. I'm looking for a simpler "fun" flying job after my current airline job.
 
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Having fun when you're young is great but I've known/worked with a couple guys in their 50s, 60s and 70s who aren't doing it for fun at this point. They NEED every paycheck to get by. I personally don't want to be pushing 80 and be still on the grind, especially because there's a much higher likelihood of having a medical denied. Maybe those guys would disagree, I'm only speaking for myself, but that's the decision you also have to make for yourself.
 
Hi folks,

Here is a dilemma that has been on my mind for quite some time. When I was really low hour it was not much of a dilemma because I did not have much choice anyways. (Most people won't hire anybody who has less than 500TT for a jet gig)

So I was a jump pilot and flew survey and had a blast, living in the moment. I enjoyed the scenery, became best buddies with the planes I flew, looked forward to a nice dinner and a few beers and that was it. I did not even care much about tallying the hours because I knew it would be a while yet till 1500.....

Well now I have about 1400 hours and a lot more options open up. I decided to accept a job offer with a part 135 shop and am scheduled for my first type rating in the Citation next month.

To tell you the truth---I want to buzz around the country for at least another season in an Aztec or Navajo flying survey, then I want to go fly a floatplane for another year, then maybe get on with a Charter operation in the Caribbean for another year flying turbo prop, then maybe spend a year in Alaska, then I will think about part 121 stuff like regional. Will tell you the truth, my endgame is either major, hauling cargo in 747, or getting a corporate job flying the G550. I am leaning more towards major .

But I'm afraid that moving around laterally just for fun for 3-4 years could potentially put me behind on the "power curve". The industry works in its own timing and if you don't attempt to make it in when there are opportunities, you may not make it in at all. I graduated in 2008 and knew what the industry was like then, and know it will happen again, just a matter of when.

I wish I started flying back in high school or something like that. That would have bought myself like 10 extra years to go have fun. Unfortunately that was not how things happened for me.

So what are your thoughts? Go for whatever you want and let the chips fall where they may? Sprint to the finish line? How does your career path look like?

No such thing as a finish line because it's not a race (unless it's with yourself). Do what you want to do, just remember that for every opportunity there is an opportunity cost.
 
Having fun when you're young is great but I've known/worked with a couple guys in their 50s, 60s and 70s who aren't doing it for fun at this point. They NEED every paycheck to get by. I personally don't want to be pushing 80 and be still on the grind, especially because there's a much higher likelihood of having a medical denied. Maybe those guys would disagree, I'm only speaking for myself, but that's the decision you also have to make for yourself.

Truth.

I don't know what your retirement fund situation looks like, but if you're closing in on 30, now's the time to be dumping money into your retirement to maximize your gains later on down the line.

You certainly don't want to be 50 years old and living paycheck to paycheck while making good money because you're trying to catch your retirement up.
 
Given the history of this industry, I'm pretty surprised at some of the responses.

Go as directly to your "ultimate job" as fast as possible. Even the difference of a month can make a difference between staying employed and furlough. The difference of six months can make the difference between an upgrade and 5+ years more in the right seat. That's a lot of bread.

The youth you wont lose, the seniority you'll gain, the compounding for retirement, and the additional time climbing the longevity ladder will serve you very well, and will allow you the time and money to smell the flowers.

If that's not your goal, fine, but understand If you miss the wave because you were dawdling around, you'll be smelling something alright, and it won't be flowery.

Richman
 
Hi guys

Want to let you know I appreciate all the responses. I am around but things got crazy right after I posted that question. Oh well such is life.

Still contemplating....
 
I'd say do what's fun. What kind of survey background do you have as I might know some good upgrades if you're interested. There are a few higher end places flying turbine aircraft and very livable rotations.

It's easy to get caught up in the current opportunities, but I still think it's viable to skip the regionals and go to the LCCs with enough twin and turbine experience and will only get easier as they expand and their are fewer pilots to draw from.

I'd say if you can live comfortably you're good. Divorce is huge in aviation and it doesn't matter how much you make if you lose half your • and are paying alimony and child support. Find something that makes you happy and that might be the worklife balance of 121 life or the experience you get from adventuring and the friends and stories you amass along the way. Life's too short to be around negative people and I don't know what its like flying 121, but it's nice being PIC with only a camera observer and no drama or anyone bitching.
 
Given the history of this industry, I'm pretty surprised at some of the responses.

Go as directly to your "ultimate job" as fast as possible. Even the difference of a month can make a difference between staying employed and furlough. The difference of six months can make the difference between an upgrade and 5+ years more in the right seat. That's a lot of bread.

The youth you wont lose, the seniority you'll gain, the compounding for retirement, and the additional time climbing the longevity ladder will serve you very well, and will allow you the time and money to smell the flowers.

If that's not your goal, fine, but understand If you miss the wave because you were dawdling around, you'll be smelling something alright, and it won't be flowery.

Richman


Do you want Colgan 3407? Because this is how you get Colgan 3407 - I say this slightly in jest, but there is something to be said for a "wide array" of experience up front too. Not saying two super experienced freight dawgs with a combined flight time of over 10,000hrs wouldn't have done the same thing (I can unequivocally say that if I had just done a bunch of training on tail-plane icing I'd be tempted to pull back too, there but for the grace of god go I and all that, and having experienced tailplane icing before, I'd hope I'd recognize the difference)...but I think more diverse time up front is "good" for safety in the industry. The guy who flew freight, then bush (or vice versa) then spent 6 months tooling around Africa, then ISR in the desert, then freight for a winter some place new, then a season or two in the Caribbean having some adventures before he or she decided to get real about their career is (dare I say) better equipped to handle the occasional black swan event when they jump into the right seat of an RJ - especially if that person has done it without bending metal, without getting violated, etc. It's also the case that if that guy or gal gets furloughed from RJ land when the economy tanks again (and it will do it again one day) he or she will be in a better position to get a job that can pay the bills in the interim while they wait for recall.

Not only do I think variation and diversity in the career is good for the soul, I also think it's good for the pilot. I get that your career is important - but if you are in your early 20s and learning to fly, take until you're 30 doing something FUN and interesting and dynamic before you go fly airlines. I mean, if you get out of college and have all your ratings by 24, that's 6 years to learn about flying, then 35 more years to click the automation on at 250' on departure, then off again at DH. The 121 world (which I've never been a part of, so perhaps I'm not qualified to comment) is built around the idea of staying in the gooey center of the envelope, minimizing surprises, etc. A lot of the rest of aviation isn't like that (indeed I think this is why part 135 accident rates are so high) - this isn't necessarily a good thing and I've spent a lot of my career trying to make part 135 safer in Alaska, but ultimately, if you cut your teeth in this world before you go to the highly structured world of 121, if you can adapt (and some guys cannot) you'll be better for it I suspect.

That doesn't mean that the 121 regional world doesn't spit out some great aviators (in fact some of the best pilots I've ever flown with cut their teeth in that world) - but learning more about aviation than what's in the FOM at BrandX is a good thing. It's just that I don't think it's a good thing for the first time a guy sits in the left seat other than instructing is with 100 people in the back. I'm sure it's probably fine, and 121 is safer than ever, and all that - but to OP, do you want to get a seniority number and wait for upgrade, or do you want to have adventures, have fun, really learn how to fly, make decisions, and be a captain? On the other side, you'll probably scare the bejesus out of yourself too, you have a lot higher probability of getting killed or violated, and you'll probably lose a friend or two along the way.

It really depends on what motivates, why you want to do what you're doing, and how much BS you're willing to tolerate. And @Richman is right, if you miss the wave, you'll be kicking yourself if you don't like it or are ready to get a "real job", but who knows what the future has in store. Frankly, I'm glad I took the path I did and would recommend it to anyone - there was some nonsense along the way, some broken promises, and some heart-break...but honestly, I'm happy I took the route I did, and honestly don't think I would change a thing.
 
I'd say do what's fun. What kind of survey background do you have as I might know some good upgrades if you're interested. There are a few higher end places flying turbine aircraft and very livable rotations.

It's easy to get caught up in the current opportunities, but I still think it's viable to skip the regionals and go to the LCCs with enough twin and turbine experience and will only get easier as they expand and their are fewer pilots to draw from.

I'd say if you can live comfortably you're good. Divorce is huge in aviation and it doesn't matter how much you make if you lose half your and are paying alimony and child support. Find something that makes you happy and that might be the worklife balance of 121 life or the experience you get from adventuring and the friends and stories you amass along the way. Life's too short to be around negative people and I don't know what its like flying 121, but it's nice being PIC with only a camera observer and no drama or anyone bitching.

This is huge by the way - aviation (well, really, how I put the career first before her) scuttled the first serious relationship of my life, when I met the gal who'd eventually become my wife I vowed that I wouldn't let that happen again. I want to get through this career with zero divorces, a happy wife, and happy kids who know their dad.
 
I spent 3 years in GA instructing and Air Ambulance. 3 years turbo props and last 6 years on Jets. I honestly am far happier now. Making more money and more time off. The longer you are in a career job the better it is. At least it has been for me.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
 
Do you want Colgan 3407? Because this is how you get Colgan 3407 - I say this slightly in jest, but there is something to be said for a "wide array" of experience up front too. Not saying two super experienced freight dawgs with a combined flight time of over 10,000hrs wouldn't have done the same thing (I can unequivocally say that if I had just done a bunch of training on tail-plane icing I'd be tempted to pull back too, there but for the grace of god go I and all that, and having experienced tailplane icing before, I'd hope I'd recognize the difference)...but I think more diverse time up front is "good" for safety in the industry. The guy who flew freight, then bush (or vice versa) then spent 6 months tooling around Africa, then ISR in the desert, then freight for a winter some place new, then a season or two in the Caribbean having some adventures before he or she decided to get real about their career is (dare I say) better equipped to handle the occasional black swan event when they jump into the right seat of an RJ - especially if that person has done it without bending metal, without getting violated, etc. It's also the case that if that guy or gal gets furloughed from RJ land when the economy tanks again (and it will do it again one day) he or she will be in a better position to get a job that can pay the bills in the interim while they wait for recall.

Not only do I think variation and diversity in the career is good for the soul, I also think it's good for the pilot. I get that your career is important - but if you are in your early 20s and learning to fly, take until you're 30 doing something FUN and interesting and dynamic before you go fly airlines. I mean, if you get out of college and have all your ratings by 24, that's 6 years to learn about flying, then 35 more years to click the automation on at 250' on departure, then off again at DH. The 121 world (which I've never been a part of, so perhaps I'm not qualified to comment) is built around the idea of staying in the gooey center of the envelope, minimizing surprises, etc. A lot of the rest of aviation isn't like that (indeed I think this is why part 135 accident rates are so high) - this isn't necessarily a good thing and I've spent a lot of my career trying to make part 135 safer in Alaska, but ultimately, if you cut your teeth in this world before you go to the highly structured world of 121, if you can adapt (and some guys cannot) you'll be better for it I suspect.

That doesn't mean that the 121 regional world doesn't spit out some great aviators (in fact some of the best pilots I've ever flown with cut their teeth in that world) - but learning more about aviation than what's in the FOM at BrandX is a good thing. It's just that I don't think it's a good thing for the first time a guy sits in the left seat other than instructing is with 100 people in the back. I'm sure it's probably fine, and 121 is safer than ever, and all that - but to OP, do you want to get a seniority number and wait for upgrade, or do you want to have adventures, have fun, really learn how to fly, make decisions, and be a captain? On the other side, you'll probably scare the bejesus out of yourself too, you have a lot higher probability of getting killed or violated, and you'll probably lose a friend or two along the way.

It really depends on what motivates, why you want to do what you're doing, and how much BS you're willing to tolerate. And @Richman is right, if you miss the wave, you'll be kicking yourself if you don't like it or are ready to get a "real job", but who knows what the future has in store. Frankly, I'm glad I took the path I did and would recommend it to anyone - there was some nonsense along the way, some broken promises, and some heart-break...but honestly, I'm happy I took the route I did, and honestly don't think I would change a thing.
I love ya pat but...tl;dr.
 
Do you want Colgan 3407? Because this is how you get Colgan 3407 - I say this slightly in jest, but there is something to be said for a "wide array" of experience up front too. Not saying two super experienced freight dawgs with a combined flight time of over 10,000hrs wouldn't have done the same thing (I can unequivocally say that if I had just done a bunch of training on tail-plane icing I'd be tempted to pull back too, there but for the grace of god go I and all that, and having experienced tailplane icing before, I'd hope I'd recognize the difference)...but I think more diverse time up front is "good" for safety in the industry. The guy who flew freight, then bush (or vice versa) then spent 6 months tooling around Africa, then ISR in the desert, then freight for a winter some place new, then a season or two in the Caribbean having some adventures before he or she decided to get real about their career is (dare I say) better equipped to handle the occasional black swan event when they jump into the right seat of an RJ - especially if that person has done it without bending metal, without getting violated, etc. It's also the case that if that guy or gal gets furloughed from RJ land when the economy tanks again (and it will do it again one day) he or she will be in a better position to get a job that can pay the bills in the interim while they wait for recall.

Not only do I think variation and diversity in the career is good for the soul, I also think it's good for the pilot. I get that your career is important - but if you are in your early 20s and learning to fly, take until you're 30 doing something FUN and interesting and dynamic before you go fly airlines. I mean, if you get out of college and have all your ratings by 24, that's 6 years to learn about flying, then 35 more years to click the automation on at 250' on departure, then off again at DH.

I agree that a diverse array of prior experiences probably produces better aviators, and would probably reduce accidents once they enter the 121 world. Whether it might have prevented Colgan 3407 is harder to say but it's certainly possible. However, be that as it may, what produces the best aviators is not necessarily what would make the most financial and career potential success to an individual pilot. I still say get there as fast as possible. If you'll pardon the religious reference, do not forfeit the "birthright" of a chance at a lucrative career for the lentil stew of fun flying.

As to your second paragraph, I disagree that the a 24-year-old who just got all their ratings has that much time. The hiring wave is happening now, will probably end any day now, and for the reasons I alluded to in my first post (encroachment of foreign low-cost carriers like NAI and the looming threat of technological unemployment and the devastating decline in consumer demand it will bring), it will likely be the very last hiring wave in history. There is not much time left to make it to the majors, so time is very much of the essence. The 24-year-old in your example is unlikely to have 35 years at the airlines as the airline industry as we know it probably won't last another 35 years. In my opinion, most people underestimate just how bleak the future will be once technological unemployment starts to be a major issue, which could be in just 5-10 years. The sun is still shining now and it is essential to make as much hay as possible before it sets, never to dawn again.
 
As to your second paragraph, I disagree that the a 24-year-old who just got all their ratings has that much time. The hiring wave is happening now, will probably end any day now, and for the reasons I alluded to in my first post (encroachment of foreign low-cost carriers like NAI and the looming threat of technological unemployment and the devastating decline in consumer demand it will bring), it will likely be the very last hiring wave in history. There is not much time left to make it to the majors, so time is very much of the essence. The 24-year-old in your example is unlikely to have 35 years at the airlines as the airline industry as we know it probably won't last another 35 years. In my opinion, most people underestimate just how bleak the future will be once technological unemployment starts to be a major issue, which could be in just 5-10 years. The sun is still shining now and it is essential to make as much hay as possible before it sets, never to dawn again.

That is a bleak world you live in.

debbie-downer.gif
 
As to your second paragraph, I disagree that the a 24-year-old who just got all their ratings has that much time. The hiring wave is happening now, will probably end any day now, and for the reasons I alluded to in my first post (encroachment of foreign low-cost carriers like NAI and the looming threat of technological unemployment and the devastating decline in consumer demand it will bring), it will likely be the very last hiring wave in history. There is not much time left to make it to the majors, so time is very much of the essence. The 24-year-old in your example is unlikely to have 35 years at the airlines as the airline industry as we know it probably won't last another 35 years. In my opinion, most people underestimate just how bleak the future will be once technological unemployment starts to be a major issue, which could be in just 5-10 years. The sun is still shining now and it is essential to make as much hay as possible before it sets, never to dawn again.

Technological unemployment is decades away, if it ever happens, and an airline like NAI could never supplant US carriers domestically because of cabotage. (Even if they could, why couldn't you fly for them?). The concept of a longhaul LCC has been around for decades now and it hasn't exactly turned the US airline industry on its head yet either.
 
Ha! At one point Double D was my nickname, for Debbie Downer of course.

Still, I'm far from the only person to have made these kinds of predictions about technological unemployment.

That's the thing about predictions. They're usually wrong. Ask @Derg about a tread on the old DALPA forum where there was a prediction made about peak oil.

And where the hell is my flying car!? THAT prediction was made decades ago.

Also, this:

Pan-Am-1967-future-possibilities.jpg


And this:

2001%2Borion%2B1.jpg
 
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