Gee thanks Raven Careers

This is the typical JC argument.

Data in a field like this isn’t done. So you go by historical context. Take your pick. Let’s start with 2000? You got Sten the Stomper Molin sending AA into Queens, a history of repeated harsh use of rudders (the 727 CA testimony is shocking). Then Pinnacle 410 club and that CA’s background and attitude. Already mentioned UPS, Colgan, and Atlas. Excluding non-pilot errors so it’s not fair to include (for example) Ocean Chalks. Bottom line is, the multiple failure pilots are much more likely yo have an eff up than those who have good / clean records. Common sense would lead to this conclusion too. Who do you think is more likely to lose control of a car? A guy who’s never been pulled over for speeding and drives carefully at/near limit? Or a guy who has multiple tickets for speeding and driving recklessly?

This isn’t hard. It’s mostly common sense. We in this industry should not be coddling these kinds of people. I frankly don’t care what some pissed off about a merger and burned out of this career non-121 pilot now realtor has to say about this subject. ;)
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
The data is based on crash history, recent accidents. I forgot UPS at BHM, although a lot of those failures/training issues were earlier in his career at UPS. But recent accident history shows when the cause was primarily due to pilot error, there has been a history of failures and paints a picture about that one pilot.

I have to remember, you were a rep and you defended pilots in these positions. So I get it, your mindset and viewpoint is different.
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That isn’t data. That’s literally the definition of anecdotes. Data would be accident rates per capita segmented by number of checkride failures. Show me your data. Otherwise, you’re just pulling stuff out of your ass.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I frankly don’t care what some pissed off about a merger and burned out of this career non-121 pilot now realtor has to say about this subject. ;)
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595CB8B7-B01A-474B-81B4-21FE95F35D6F.jpeg
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Because the last two crashes, this was literally the issue with them in terms of many failures. And it left people dead. That’s why.

You have any other MO other than asking why I care about what ever topic it is? Seems kinda lame that’s what you fall back on every time.
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SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
I mean, it’s a good reason to care, and I agree that Max’s recent “you shouldn’t care about anything” attitude is a little too fatalist and nihilistic, but I think your conclusions may be faulty. Where is your data that demonstrates that multi-failure pilots have a higher accident rate?
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What you think is me picking at you is actually me trying to understand your thinking. I work in a very analytical and clinical setting. We observe, document and examine behaviors to establish patterns and understanding. To better manage and better predict behaviors. Am I trying to manage your behaviors, no. But moreso trying to understand your thinking and why you care so much about things that you have absolutely zero control of. Or why you enjoy sporting a huge outrage boner on culture war related issues. I simply do not understand that type of thinking. As I try really hard to control the things only within my power to control.

Regarding human behavior, I can tell you from observation and experience that people typically do things for a specific reason. Most often times to seek some sort of validation/reward/gratification. You go hard in the paint on certain topics that, others seem to be able to simply shrug their shoulders about and move on with their lives. Whereas you perseverate about it, rather strongly. The last time that I asked you this question, you explained why exactly you wondered which two members of the MEC vote against the then DL AIP. The way that you spelled it out made sense and I was like okay, well that makes sense. 2+2 = 4. Just trying to equal four here as well.

I mean yes, I partially see your point. But as @SlumTodd_Millionaire is so keen to do concerning mass shootings and date and statistics. The statistics don't seem to be in your favor as planes aren't falling out of the sky. The system already in place weeds out people (maybe not as fast as you'd prefer) and 121 aviation is mostly a safe endeavor. Also as @derg has stated his friend see's how the sausage is made. And its not always as clear cut from your limited perspective as you think that it is. Hope this helps.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
That isn’t data. That’s literally the definition of anecdotes. Data would be accident rates per capita segmented by number of checkride failures. Show me your data. Otherwise, you’re just pulling stuff out of your ass.
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Meh. My younger years, I’d jump on this and argue more. I don’t GAF now. You don’t work in the industry anymore.


At my virtual airline, mgt has said (and union confirmed) that we’ve had to let go of multiple pilots who couldn’t hack it. All over the place. Couldn’t fly a 737 sim. Couldn’t program a box. Weak pilots in general. That’s expensive and dangerous. Expensive, cause they were hired based on their prep and now let go during training. But then told to pack up and bye bye after it became obvious they just weren’t cut out for this. As a line CA, I appreciate training’s efforts and their decision to wash someone out.

We deserve better. The paying passengers deserve better.
 
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Meh. My younger years, I’d jump on this and argue more. I don’t GAF now. You don’t work in the industry anymore.


At my virtual airline, mgt has said (and union confirmed) that we’ve had to let go of multiple pilots who couldn’t hack it. All over the place. Couldn’t fly a 737 sim. Couldn’t program a box. Weak pilots in general. That’s expensive and dangerous. Expensive, cause they were hired based on their prep and now let go during training. But then told to pack up and bye bye after it became obvious they just weren’t cut out for this. As a line CA, I appreciate training’s efforts and their decision to wash someone out.

We deserve better. The paying passengers deserve better.
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Sounds like the system worked!
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Meh. My younger years, I’d jump on this and argue more. I don’t GAF now. You don’t work in the industry anymore.


At my virtual airline, mgt has said (and union confirmed) that we’ve had to let go of multiple pilots who couldn’t hack it. All over the place. Couldn’t fly a 737 sim. Couldn’t program a box. Weak pilots in general. That’s expensive and dangerous. Expensive, cause they were hired based on their prep and now let go during training. But then told to pack up and bye bye after it became obvious they just weren’t cut out for this. As a line CA, I appreciate training’s efforts and their decision to wash someone out.

We deserve better. The paying passengers deserve better.
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Maybe you do agree, after all, that it is the air line's job to make that decision, not Raven's. Eh?
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
What you think is me picking at you is actually me trying to understand your thinking. I work in a very analytical and clinical setting. We observe, document and examine behaviors to establish patterns and understanding. To better manage and better predict behaviors. Am I trying to manage your behaviors, no. But moreso trying to understand your thinking and why you care so much about things that you have absolutely zero control of. Or why you enjoy sporting a huge outrage boner on culture war related issues. I simply do not understand that type of thinking. As I try really hard to control the things only within my power to control.

Regarding human behavior, I can tell you from observation and experience that people typically do things for a specific reason. Most often times to seek some sort of validation/reward/gratification. You go hard in the paint on certain topics that, others seem to be able to simply shrug their shoulders about and move on with their lives. Whereas you perseverate about it, rather strongly. The last time that I asked you this question, you explained why exactly you wondered which two members of the MEC vote against the then DL AIP. The way that you spelled it out made sense and I was like okay, well that makes sense. 2+2 = 4. Just trying to equal four here as well.

I mean yes, I partially see your point. But as @SlumTodd_Millionaire is so keen to do concerning mass shootings and date and statistics. The statistics don't seem to be in your favor as planes aren't falling out of the sky. The system already in place weeds out people (maybe not as fast as you'd prefer) and 121 aviation is mostly a safe endeavor. Also as @derg has stated his friend see's how the sausage is made. And its not always as clear cut from your limited perspective as you think that it is. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

You psycho analyze too much. I think others have said that about you, and how you should stop once you are hired at a 121. Agreed.

As for accidents, an absence of a crash does not imply a good safety culture. You’re right that Aviation has been really safe in this country. But that doesn’t mean there haven’t been incidents and close calls.


Bottom line is, people who eff up with multiple training failures over and over again are more likely to eff up in real life.

4 separate Part 121 failures is a huge red flag.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
In this case, yes. But remember the accident chain? Just one break in the chain can stop the accident. It’s only a matter of time, sadly.
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I have to ask, do you treat your copilots how you treat your fellow forumites or is there a delineation between work and leisure?

I mean, me on the forum and me in a professional environment are mutually exclusive but do you treat anecdotes, feelings and clickbait philosophy into the work environment?
 
derg said:
I have to ask, do you treat your copilots how you treat your fellow forumites or is there a delineation between work and leisure?

I mean, me on the forum and me in a professional environment are mutually exclusive but do you treat anecdotes, feelings and clickbait philosophy into the work environment?
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No. I'm like you (me on the forum and me in a professional environment are mutually exclusive).

I don't ask about their training records obviously. I don't even bring up politics unless they bring it. And I usually don't talk news unless something big happened that day.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
You psycho analyze too much. I think others have said that about you, and how you should stop once you are hired at a 121. Agreed.

As for accidents, an absence of a crash does not imply a good safety culture. You’re right that Aviation has been really safe in this country. But that doesn’t mean there haven’t been incidents and close calls.


Bottom line is, people who eff up with multiple training failures over and over again are more likely to eff up in real life.

4 separate Part 121 failures is a huge red flag.
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Well A.) I'm not psychoanalyzing you.

Psychoanalysis is a set of theories and therapeutic techniques that deal in part with the unconscious mind, and which together form a method of treatment for mental disorders. Examining the five key concepts of psychoanalytical theory including. Structure of personality, psychosexual stages, defense mechanism, anxiety, and the unconscious mind.

I simply asked you a probing question, seeking insight/understanding.
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
Well A.) I'm not psychoanalyzing you.

Psychoanalysis is a set of theories and therapeutic techniques that deal in part with the unconscious mind, and which together form a method of treatment for mental disorders. Examining the five key concepts of psychoanalytical theory including. Structure of personality, psychosexual stages, defense mechanism, anxiety, and the unconscious mind.

I simply asked you a probing question, seeking insight/understanding.
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